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2011/12/07 19:30:58
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Hey all, making a list to maximize on the # of men in the Seer Council, as they are extremely despised at my club, and I thrive off the hatred of the 3+/4++ re-rollable. Hence:
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/12/07 19:42:02
azazel the cat wrote:The best way to play Warhammer 40k is with a pretty girl.
Both players should be using the least durable units possible, with the house rule that all players remove an article of clothing every time you lose a unit, and take a drink every time you kill one of your opponent's units.
I have no idea which army will be triumphant, but I can assure you that everyone wins.
Kain wrote:The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.
2011/12/07 20:35:46
Subject: Re:22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
First of, Dual Seer Council is an incredibly niche list which requires a lot of practice to get the hang of. Also, you're extremely reliant of the Councils to do everything as you don't have the support elements in your army to help them. For these reasons, it's not something that is an "Omg auto-win rofl" list, it's rather difficult to pull off.
Right as for the list, it has a couple of problems. i.e:
1) You NEED Runes of Witnessing on both your Farseers. Period. You're relying on Fortune going off or you're a sitting duck. Get it man.
2) You don't really need doom. It's nice and all but you should do enough damage with witchblades and wounding on a 3+(generally) with Destructor. That also kills spirit stones.
3) Drop the 66 point GJBs, They are gonna die. Even in an objective game, the risk of them coming in turn 2 is not appealing.
4) I'd also drop the other GJB, yes they're nice and all but you want some DAVUs in Wave Serpents. a) they are more reliable b) They can do almost all things better than the bikes, and, they make the Serpent scoring.
5) This'll save you 411pts. Which means you can get 2 DAVU Wave Serpents, they'll serve you so much better!
That's all I've got atm.
Just know that Dual Council is nowhere near as competitive as a Single Council with Support. You are just too vulnerable against wacky Fortune rolls and any form of Psychic Defence or Grey Knights will wipe the floor with you.
But, let me know how you do with it!
Iranna.
2011/12/07 20:52:17
Subject: Re:22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Ahh yay for Iranna, I knew you'd have an opinion lol. Dropping the doom, and all the bikes I can clear for the DAVU no problem.
As to the RoWitnessing - doesn't having embolden render these unnecessary? Re-rollable failed LD tests with the Ghosthelm means 2 shots at a roll of <10, and avoiding Perils on a 3+.
A challenge is no problem, I'm getting better with the 'dar all the time. No worries there.
Troops 5x DA -WA, EML, SS, Star Engines............205
5x DA -WA, EML, SS, Star Engines............205
Total - 1748
----------------------- As a side note, is this a list more along what you mean for the single council being competitive? (Note: On the Seers - I have no idea what to do for powers, minus a Fortune on one)
Heavy Fire Prism............115 Fire Prism............115 Nightspinner........115
Total - 1750
Is this more competitive (so I know)?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/07 20:52:30
azazel the cat wrote:The best way to play Warhammer 40k is with a pretty girl.
Both players should be using the least durable units possible, with the house rule that all players remove an article of clothing every time you lose a unit, and take a drink every time you kill one of your opponent's units.
I have no idea which army will be triumphant, but I can assure you that everyone wins.
Kain wrote:The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.
2011/12/07 21:27:19
Subject: Re:22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Well, it's more a necessity for Dual Council the Runes of Witnessing because you Need Fortune up or you lose. Period. The Runes just make sure you get it.
The new list is definately much better I'd say, you'll still struggle against Grey Knights (quirk of the army really) and anyone with loads of high AV tanks but, thems the breaks.
Another thing I should add is the importance of Multi-Assaults to the Councils! With your 10 man squads, you have enough power to crash 2-3 squads and still be more than a match for most things, just be careful about getting tarpitted!
But the list should work much better as it has tonnes more staying power.
As for your second list, it's very good, there's just a couple of things we can slightly tweak.
For example, I'd put a max of 4 Singing Spears in the Council, just because you need the extra attacks to pose a credible threat to most 3+ or better save units.
You CAN get away with only one Farseer (risky mind you) if you wanted another GJB squad but if you did that then you'd Definately need Runes of Warding.
Overall, it's a very good list in my opinion!
Iranna.
2011/12/07 22:19:20
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Well I take that back, if this is a for fun list then it should be a giggle to see on the field. If this is a serious list... um well good luck to ya. GK, BA, SW, and Crons will face stomp this into the ground. It'll struggle vs orks and potentially DE too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/07 22:20:17
Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about! |Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
2011/12/07 22:26:23
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
@BlueDagger
Haha, yea this list is not for serious play, like I mentioned, it's about annoying people with fortune mostly. For those slow days at the club when no one is really there for a decent game.
But, care to give your opinion on the other list (the one in spoilers) in terms of competitiveness?
azazel the cat wrote:The best way to play Warhammer 40k is with a pretty girl.
Both players should be using the least durable units possible, with the house rule that all players remove an article of clothing every time you lose a unit, and take a drink every time you kill one of your opponent's units.
I have no idea which army will be triumphant, but I can assure you that everyone wins.
Kain wrote:The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.
2011/12/07 22:32:21
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
As much as it pains me to say, I can't claim seer councils at all as competitive anymore. GK Storm Ravens basically automatically kill the unit with mind strike missiles, and there is far too many multisaves out there that they don't bypass. They are really tough vs some things, but completely fail against others and those things they fail at are the most prevalent at this time.
Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about! |Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
2011/12/07 22:33:27
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Mindstrikes would just perils anyone under the template, which is straight up invuls if Fortune is up. Nasty, but not auto-lose.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although I would agree that SC is much less cool than it used to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/07 22:33:56
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2011/12/07 22:37:05
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Couldn't the Perils be negated by Ghosthelm? (At least for the Seer)
And, if not Councils - what?
I've been told several times that Eldar is not competitive, and tends to sit about the middle of the pack (with the justification being that Eldar, while weak, are played well (usually)). I've heard Mechdar, and Jetdar, and Footdar, I've heard Harlies, Wraiths, and others. I'm genuinely curious about everyone's opinion, as everyone has different views and experience.
azazel the cat wrote:The best way to play Warhammer 40k is with a pretty girl.
Both players should be using the least durable units possible, with the house rule that all players remove an article of clothing every time you lose a unit, and take a drink every time you kill one of your opponent's units.
I have no idea which army will be triumphant, but I can assure you that everyone wins.
Kain wrote:The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.
2011/12/07 22:48:42
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
BlueDagger wrote:As much as it pains me to say, I can't claim seer councils at all as competitive anymore. GK Storm Ravens basically automatically kill the unit with mind strike missiles, and there is far too many multisaves out there that they don't bypass. They are really tough vs some things, but completely fail against others and those things they fail at are the most prevalent at this time.
I'd have to disagree.
While I agree a GK Stormraven forces you to deploy somewhat carefully it's not an "auto-lose" situation. It's not as hard as people think to destroy an AV 12 skimmer, even with a 4+/3+ up.
Also, I'd say that you shouldn't be charging or getting charged by things with multiple saves, with a Seer Council, they have the speed to pick and choose your battles if you stay focussed.
They're obviously not as scary as they were at the beginning of the year, but I think they've still got some life left in them!
Iranna.
2011/12/08 00:36:13
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
GK storm Ravens have 4 Mind Strike Missiles Each, if the model is under the template it takes a Perils. This allows them to snipe your key warlocks such as your Embolden and Enhance Warlocks. If you were bunched up after having assaulted a vehicle, you wipe. You have a 50% chance with fortune to save and 25% without... and there is 4 missile blasts. Your Seer council will be in shambles after that. Typically the GK storm Raven will be coming in from reserves, so you won't have a chance to take it down before it hits you.
Unfortunately for the seer council though there is things as fast as it nowadays with Jump Inf, beast etc getting more prevalent.
In your spoiler list you are spending 783 points in one unit. Now look at the cost of your Serpents and Fire Dragons for your Anti Tank, look at the survivability boost holofield/stones give your prism/spinner, etc
I personally even like the idea of a small warlock council strike squad. Eldrad in a Serpent/Falcon and 4 Warlock bikers. The bikers stay by eldrad's ride and get fortuned up before heading in to make a mess. Destructor kit them or Spear and one embolden kit them.
Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about! |Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
2011/12/08 03:03:57
Subject: Re:22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
The problem I see now a days with the jetcouncil is the amount of psychic defence on the table. A SW player can shut down the fortune on a 3+, which flat out kills the council -- as its needs the fortune to survive.
The jetbike council was king in its day, and it might be king again in 6th, but for today its a relic of the past.
2011/12/08 16:14:04
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
racta wrote:Instead of the DAVU units in wave serpents, I'd go with DAVU in falcons. That way you get a little bit of extra oomph and are still scoring.
Falcons are nowhere near as survivable as Wave Serpents however, even when they do have Holo-fields and because they will be the only vehicles in the list they're gonna be subject to every Anti-tank weapon the opponent has.
Iranna.
2011/12/08 17:00:32
Subject: Re:22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
The problem I see now a days with the jetcouncil is the amount of psychic defence on the table. A SW player can shut down the fortune on a 3+, which flat out kills the council -- as its needs the fortune to survive.
The jetbike council was king in its day, and it might be king again in 6th, but for today its a relic of the past.
Sums up my thoughts exactly. I think maybe a mini Seer Council could still have a place, but putting too many points into it is a recipe for a rock, paper, scissors type scenario. There will be lists that you are able to crush, but anything with good psychic defense will be really, really bad. No fortune and those expensive models drop like flies.
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2011/12/08 17:25:54
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
Elites 5x Fire Dragons
-Wave Serpent, SStones, SEngines, Shuri Cannon......205
Heavy Fire Prism
-Holofields....................150
Fire Prism
-Holofields.....................150
Nightspinner
-Holofields......................150
Total - 1750
This list also has the option of dropping 3x Warlocks, all the destructors, and the holofields from the Nightspinner, and adding in another 5x FD w/ WS with Scatter Lasers.
Thoughts on this list?
(This is my normal one)
azazel the cat wrote:The best way to play Warhammer 40k is with a pretty girl.
Both players should be using the least durable units possible, with the house rule that all players remove an article of clothing every time you lose a unit, and take a drink every time you kill one of your opponent's units.
I have no idea which army will be triumphant, but I can assure you that everyone wins.
Kain wrote:The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.
2011/12/08 21:59:21
Subject: 22 Man Seer Council - Eldar 1750 (Edited and Updated)
racta wrote:Instead of the DAVU units in wave serpents, I'd go with DAVU in falcons. That way you get a little bit of extra oomph and are still scoring.
Falcons are nowhere near as survivable as Wave Serpents however, even when they do have Holo-fields and because they will be the only vehicles in the list they're gonna be subject to every Anti-tank weapon the opponent has.
Iranna.
Actually statistically a Falcon is more "survivable" as long as you keep it at range. However a Serpent is cheaper and won't be shaken nearly as often. Falcon's major issue is it compete with Spinners and Prisms, so 3 is not a terrible great option. However with the advent of Crons Falcons got a little better thanks to 3 long range S8 shots to counter the new AV13 spam threat.
All of those should always be taken with Holofields unless sub 1k pts. Stones are highly advised those less so on Spinners, and Falcons should always wither have EML or situationally BL.
Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about! |Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
