Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So im very new to warmachine and all Ive purchased so far is the two player box set, and a khador war doggie.

Id like some advice on how to proceed.

I usually feel most comfortable playing a ranged army with a low model count, and as such (for lack of a 2 player Cygnar starter set), ive chosen to expand on the Khador side.

I was thinking of dropping sorschan, the manowar unit, ordering a spare destroyer bombard arm and a conversion kit to convert the juggernaut into a black ivan.

Ive done my homework online and my 35 point army would look something like this:

Tier 4
Harkevich
War Doggie

Black Ivan*
Destroyer*
Destroyer*
Destroyer*

Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

*reduced point cost from Harkevich's tier 4 bonus

and for 50 pts:

Tier 4
Harkevich

Black Ivan*
Destroyer*
Destroyer*
Destroyer*
Destroyer*
Destroyer*

Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

*reduced point cost from Harkevich's tier 4 bonus

With Harkevich's broadsides, im looking to drop 6 x 2 + 2 pie plates every round at a 14" range, with the only major threat being outranged by a cygnar defender with a 22" snipe boost.

Also I get to hide my mortar crew and bottleneck charge lanes with 6 preplaced wreck markers from Harkevich's theme bonus.

Im really attracted to this setup because it looks like a real pain to deal with. Khador Destroyers look really great to me for their versatility but with a few weaknesses, mainly their slow speed, their poor RAT and their expensive point cost. However this lists is able (to some extent) to mitigate their slow speed by either making lesser ranged units come to me or by giving them a good shelling as I advance, their poor RAT by sheer volume, their expensive point cost with Harkevich's theme bonus, and also I get to pull a nasty combo with Harkevich's feat for when my jacks go into melee.

I also hear that the most competitive warmachine lists are infantry heavy, and I hear infantry love delicious pie.

I suppose the lists major weaknesses would be in going against high Def, high ARM, stealthy, incorporeal units, but then again my guys are by no means fragile and are still top notch in melee.

The downside to the list is that I would be ditching a good warcaster and a 9 point manowar unit from the battle box and also I wont get to paint some very cool units that attracted me to warmachine to begin with, namely Drago, the Extreme juggernaut, and the Khador Gun Carriage.

Being very very new to warmachine, I would like some advice as to whether my list is viable before I proceed to buy a bunch of destroyers, or whether I should stick more closely to the two player battle box.

I was considering just buying a widowmaker unit to bring the two player battle box list up to 25 points (with the war doggie) to play a couple of games with and to get a better idea of the game, but that would mean that I might end up with a wasted juggy. From what Ive gathered about the widowmaker unit, they seem too prominent not to see their effectiveness for myself.

The biggest problem that you're going to come across with these sorts of lists is that you can't effectively 'run' all of your destroyers. So while dropping a bunch of POW 14s is a decent idea, you have to accept that with this sort of list you won't see a lot of accuracy outside of Black Ivan when you are shooting - Khador's bombardments are generally fairly inaccurate, and you'll miss even DEF 12 on average (needing 8s to hit with their RAT of 4). And due to using broadside, you can only boost to hit a few of your destroyers for better accuracy.

The result is someone with better jack efficiency will be able to outfight you, and someone who supports infantry well can outflank or swarm you over. Remember that most of your shots will miss on average (DEF 12 is fairly average in this game, and of the two DEF 10 jack factions, one can make it so you can't even shoot at them with normal guns) and you won't be boosting most of the shots that do hit, so you won't be putting that much hurt on jacks you do hit directly, and higher ARM infantry will survive the blast damage most of the time.

While not set in stone, there is a 'silver rule' in Warmachine that you generally want to run a number of jacks equal to your casters focus divided by 3 - this is the number they can have go 'all out' during a given turn, and thus they won't be stretching their abilities if their entire army is forced to fight at once. It doesn't always hold true - some casters can break the rule, and others can achieve higher efficiency via support solos or their spells. In Harkevich's case, his 'ideal efficiency' index is 2, due to liking to fight at range. So he can probably run 3 jacks very efficiently, since he only needs 2 focus each to have them attack a single target at maximum power. This is probably also the best balance for his broadside spell, as with less than 3 jacks he's paying more in focus for broadside than he would be if he could just buy additional attacks.

So you might look at Black Ivan / Destroyer / Destroyer for his basic warjack group. Since you want to run his tier list, we can build from there using some of the very solid troop options Khador has that are available for Harkevich's tier list for something like this:

Harkevich
* Black Ivan
* Destroyer
* Destroyer
* War Dog
Winter Guard Infantry
* Winter Guard Officer and Standard
* 3x Winter Guard Rocketeers
Kovnik Josef Grigorvich
Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

This gives you a solid base of troops which can eliminate problem threats or tarpit for your jacks as they close in. While not quite as nasty as they might be with a caster who can cast Iron Flesh on them, they still represent a good threat and are hard to kill with their bob and weave order. Kovnik Joe is just icing on the cake, and while fortune is OK on a single jack, it is AMAZING on a big group of infantry. Especially infantry that can get boosted attack rolls.

This also leaves you with 10 points left over, which gives you some decisions. You can include another infantry unit - if you want something tough in your army, you can field a full unit of Man-O-War Demo Corps or Shock Troopers. You can also field a full unit of the Winter Guard Rifle Corps if you want someone else Joe can support. There is also the option of including another jack - either a 3rd Destroyer, or a solid melee beat stick like a Spriggan (which can still gain a small benefit from his feat and broadside). In either case you may have to drop the war dog to wiggle in a Winterguard Marksman to fill our your last point, or accept that you're running a point short at 50.

abumgang wrote:With Harkevich's broadsides, im looking to drop 6 x 2 + 2 pie plates every round at a 14" range, with the only major threat being outranged by a cygnar defender with a 22" snipe boost.

i would go over your homework. you have loads of threats that outdo destroyers. off the top of my head:

space tick
sniped mules/mariners in a merc list (sniped anything really)
commodore cannon (straight 20 inch range with auto slamming goodness)

dropping so many pie plates is cool for effect, and there is a good chance that squishy infantry will die, but focuing just on destroyers will get you in trouble when you have to engage. guns will not solve it all. ever face a menoth jack list that spams the choir of menoth? yeah your guns do nothing, or pVlad or borka? wind wall ends any threat to the opposing caster. i recommend some variety in your list. a low model count "gunboat" list can be done better with pVlad or karchev who can tow around some guns so they get their aiming bonus.

pVlad with a behemoth, the WGI and a few mortars is a ton more scarier considering his spell list supports it all and in a pinch he can use hit feat to get his jacks into action really quick to smash it up in melee.

I run almost that exact same list just because... it's hilariously fun. I have a pretty good win ratio. Got to realize that even though they are less proficient in melee than Juggernauts, Destroyers are a LOT of HP and ARM to chew through. Typically people will circumvent this and attack Harkevich, so watch out for that.

Additionally, you're inevitably going to get swamped. You're going to have like 5-6 melee attacks a turn not accounting for focus. If you use Broadsides you get around 12 very inaccurate ranged attacks.

You might think about dropping one of the Destroyers and filling out the army a little bit. For the same cost as one Destroyer you could get Kovnik Joe to boost one of your WG Mortar shots a round, and a Koldun Lord to Power Booster one of your Destroyers, as well as a Widowmaker Marksman guy.



I also really like Field Guns, but that's just me. I find they're pretty alright at shooting enemy jacks. You could park one behind a wreck marker for the cover bonus, which makes an ok little firebase.

Looking at:

Auto boosted Black Ivan shot
Koldun Power Booster'd Destroyer shot
Regular Destroyer shot, can lend focus
A boosted Mortar shot
Another Mortar shot with... uh, Fortune?

Fortune is pretty awesome. Can put it on the jack or whatever you want really. Even if you need something high to hit, it gives you two chances!

Well i started khador last onth and so far i have an ok list

Sorscha
Juggernaut
Destroyer
5 man-o-war shocktroopers
5 man-o-war demo corps
iron fang pikemen with UA

hoping to add

Beast 09
widowmakers
behemoth butcher
and some battle mechaniks with UA

problem with a khador destroyer list is that it is not flexible enough for some games against armys like cryx and circle oboros

i think with a behemoth and some man-o-war troopers i could really become a really great all round list
i would not drop the shocktroopers because they are all round great troopers to spearhead and attack cos of their shelid cannons

hope the list works out and good luck