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Hello,

I am new here. Friend of mine introduced me into the game and I am in the final process of selecting what army I am going to be selecting. After looking around, I have decided that I really want to play an army that is under represented in my local shop. These are the least played and the ones that interest me the most. Can someone give me an idea of how these play, how competitive they are and how expensive they are to get to say a 2400 range as that is what is mostly played here. Lastly out of these three which would you say is the most successful in tournaments?

Thank you.

I would wait before starting any of those armies as they are scheduled to be overhauled in the next year.

VC are being redone in January, then Empire, then Dwarves from what I understand.

Oh. But I want to start playing soon, not have to wait.

I wouldn't worry that much about new books arriving. It takes time to paint and assemble, and unless you're really playing in a cut-throat environment, you shouldn't find anything unusable. Dwarfs will need warriors and war machines, Empire will want state troops and war machines, vampires... less certain where they'll go with their core.

Dwarfs (or dwarves) are underrated by many I know, what with their low movement and lack of offensive magic. But they forget high leadership, great magic defense and awesome shooting. They are very dependable and tough. The rune system is flexible and allows you to custom create your magic items. Warmachines like Grudge Throwers and cannon are, frankly, awesome.Sure, they can't wreck a unit by throwing dice at a spell, and their threat radius is pretty small, but they can take-and give- a real beating.

VC's used to be a top tier army. They wrecked face with their fear causing units and powerful characters. Thier power has been reigned in somewhat now that Fear is less potent. They have the ability to raise groups of Zombies, as well as replenish the strength of existing units-even beyond their starting size. They have some neat magic items, and some decent units. They're fun and flavourful, but not overly powerful right now.

Right this second, Dwarfs are probably the better choice for tournaments, but who knows what could happen if VC's get a new book??!!

TowMater wrote:Oh. But I want to start playing soon, not have to wait.

Buy a Battalion, and start putting stuff together. Depending on what army you decide on, a new book might be sooner or later. If you decide on Vampire Counts, their book is arriving next month. Empire should be somewhere near the middle of the year. We don't know much outside of that for Dwarves, which could be near the end of the year or even next year.

Regardless, if you want to get started, just buy a Battalion first, and put some stuff together, maybe even try your hand at painting. Buy the rulebook (I'd recommend grabbing an Island of Blood mini rulebook off ebay, as it'll be far cheaper than the hardcover book and you still get all of the rules), read the rules, then buy your army book.

TowMater wrote:Can someone give me an idea of how these play, how competitive they are

What others have said are accurate. But I'll add some stuff (sorry if it's repeated):

Dwarfs - not a lot of unit choice flexibility on larger competitive lists, but there is some. they move slowly but are hard to kill and break. Can also be great killers, both in combat (if you bring GWs) and shooting (w/ their great War Machines and solid shooty troops). You can go offensively w/ your troops, but taking the defensive strat is viable, too. Some would suggest your Warriors (main core) go horde (assuming they have GW) for maximum killing potential. But all other units should still stay back and wait for the enemy to come to them while the enemy gets softened up by the arty and any infantry shooters. Summary of list choices - lots of troops and war machines and shooting units, no magic or monsters or cavalry. Probably in the 5~8 range of "best" armies, but in WHFB, that's nothing to frown at (a lot of parity and balance compared to 40k).

Empire - dont know a lot about their specific tactics as I've never seen them in action. But from my understanding, they're good at everything, but great at nothing. ...Except shooting is up there w/ Dwarfs as the most feared and deadly in the game. Summary of list choices - everything but monsters. Probably also in the 6~10 range of "best" armies.

VC - They're all about getting in to combat. Lots of undead, ghoul types and some ethereals led by a couple elite Vampires. Undead can be resurrected. Ghouls, ethereals, and the coach or cart (forget which...if either) are where its at now, but that can all change w/ the rumored January update. Summary of list choices - lots of troops, magic, some monsters and cavalry, no war machines or shooting units. Arguably in the 4-11 range of "best" armies (wide range, yeah, I've seen them in action and heard arguments both ways, guess it all depends on the general and match up). Again, that can all change after the update.

TowMater wrote:how expensive they are to get to say a 2400 range as that is what is mostly played here.

I'd say each army should range in the $700~$1000 range if you're buying new from the GW retail boxes. That's for about ~2500 pts, I believe. I could be off.

TowMater wrote:Lastly out of these three which would you say is the most successful in tournaments?

well, referring back to the competitive ranks, it's pretty varied. From what I've seen locally (got about ~20 players who play at tournaments regularly), at tourneys in other areas, and the Ard Boyz Finals held at my FLGS, I'd say it goes Dwarfs - Empire - VC. But that's primarily due to how frequently they're played. My area has a good handful of Dwarf players and only 1 VC player and I think 2 Empire players. In the Ard Boyz Finals, Dwarfs were in the final 6, VC and Empire weren't. So Dwarfs usually perform better at tourneys b/c they're actually played at tourneys (that I've gone to in the immediate and larger area around me).

Dwarfs won't change much. They'll still rely on blocks of warriors, tricked out lords, shutting down magic and an entire backfield of warmachines.

I've been playing quite a few battles against Dwarfs lately, and I can tell you that my opponent always seems to have a different configuration every time I face him and he seems to be having a lot of fun. They're a real challenge on the battlefield.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

TowMater wrote:how expensive they are to get to say a 2400 range as that is what is mostly played here.

I'd say each army should range in the $700~$1000 range if you're buying new from the GW retail boxes. That's for about ~2500 pts, I believe. I could be off.

That's a big overestimate. Maybe if he was paying Australian retail he'd hit $700.

The best thing is Battalions. They're pretty good for their price, and seem to be about 20-25% savings to buying them individually, and if you get it from somewhere that already does a 25% store discount on GW, it's even better. Battalions also tend to have a bunch of good core units, and little in the way of useless units.

A pair of battalions, a couple of heroes and a special and rare choice should give you a good chunk of an army (I'd say easily 2000 points for most armies) and won't run you $700us.

Most armies of 2500 points run about $500 US with a variance of plus or minus 75ish dollars. Elite armies may cost less, horde armies may cost more.

The pricing for armies is fairly balanced.

If you want, PM me and I can give you my contact for 30% off retail and $6 flat rate shipping to the US. So your $500 army really will cost $350ish.

No one should pay retail, ever. I only pay full price for paints and such that I don't buy in enough bulk to justify shipping charges, so I buy them locally.

-Loki- wrote:A pair of battalions, a couple of heroes and a special and rare choice should give you a good chunk of an army (I'd say easily 2000 points for most armies) and won't run you $700us.

uhh...no way 2 battalions, 2 heroes, and 1 spec/rare box gives you 2000 pts, or even be the best possible list most likely. I can claim this before I even do the math, which I'm about to...

I just did the math for 2 Battalions (which lucky for VC and Dwarf are great deals), 2 heroes ($15 ones - generic magic-type and a BSB), and 1 possible best special/rare and maxed options and pre-tax:

Empire - ~$320 for ~1800pts
Dwarfs - ~$255 for ~1900pts
VC - ~$270 for ~1700pts

So, while close to 2000pts, that purchase package doesn't "easily" get you 2000pts. Doesn't get you 2000pts at all. And then there's competitiveness to consider. To actually get to 2000pts and be somewhat competitive, you'd probably have to spend another $100~$200, either on more basically now-unneeded Battalions or a bunch of expensive Spec/Rares ($30 for 5 Hammerers, $25-35 for 10 core of Empire or 1 cannon/mortar, $40 for 10 Grave Guard and $100 for 5 Blood Knights, etc).

So really, for a beginner's 2000pt list, you're looking at $350~550, pre-tax. And that doesn't even give you any flexibility (i.e. actually having like ~2500pts, even if you just plan to play 2000pts), which is what I was considering, and questionable competitiveness.

I agree that most if not all battalions are not ideal purchases for competitive lists, at least not if you buy more than 1 of them.

Like I said, $500 will get you right around a 2500 point list, but that will be a set list with no wiggle room model wise for you to try out different things.

Some units alone will cost $120 just to take them at the right size to try them out(which is what proxying is for).

This is why I always tell people to write an army list, get feedback on it, revise it and THEN finalize it into a purchasing list. No point buying units that are terrible just because you didn't know they were.

Ahh, ok I see it was Special and Rare (I did the math for "or"). Well, just add about $30~40 for ~100pts.

Still roughly $350 pre-tax for still barely 2000pts, if at all. My $700 rough guess was for 2500pts (with some flexibility, so closer to 3000pts, since OP asked for 2400 pts), not too bad of a blind shot!

Aerethan wrote:(which is what proxying is for).

This is why I always tell people to write an army list, get feedback on it, revise it and THEN finalize it into a purchasing list. No point buying units that are terrible just because you didn't know they were.

but aye, this'll save a lot of $$. Especially if you want to just stick to 1 definitive list. I know a guy who used the units from his Battalion to proxy like 5 other units and ended up just getting 2 of those units. Saved him some money.

Why are you worrying about competitve choices?

We're giving advice for someone getting into the game. The last thing a new player needs when they haven't even read the rules yet is worrying about competitiveness. Advice on how to get a good sized army cheaply is more likely what they want to hear, which is why I recommended the two battalions, few heroes and special and rare choice.

Now, to bring that to 2400? Still nowhere near $700us. If, going by your calculations, you can get near 2000 points for $350us, those are some expensive additions you are thinking to bring it to $700-$1000us. Again - you won't even hit that paying Australian retail.

As for wiggle room - that's something you build up as you expand and learn how you personally want to play your army.

If I were you, I would pick dwarfs. Bit hard to play atm, but there scheduled to have a nice overhaul sometime early next year which would be nice. They have lovely back round and some cool rules... Mhmmm Anvil of Doom

Wow, thanks guys!

@Everyone, those price estimates help out a lot. Especially the ability to get close to a 2000 point army for under 400 USD. Thanks!

@Simon, honestly the Dwarves are the ones I like the most, it worries me a bit that they are the only army without magic and have the smallest movement. But as a whole I like them the most.

One thing that also does concern me is I believe I will enjoy combat, and I am not sure how much I will see on a per game basis at M3.

Orzabal and I have written Dwarf battle reports recently- I don't think there's a single game where we didn't end up in combat.

I'm playing around with an anvil list right now that uses only two war machines. Lots of combat there. You can make the army you want to play if you want combat. It may not be the #1 most 100% awesome efficient, but it'll do just fine.

-Loki- wrote:Why are you worrying about competitve choices?

We're giving advice for someone getting into the game.

yeah...and if someone starts getting in to a game that they lose 80% of the time b/c of poor/ignorant selection of units, there's a chance they may not even enjoy the game and end up quitting/selling their stuff/think of it as a waste of money etc. I've witnessed it plenty of times.

Plus OP even wanted to know how competitive the armies are, so there's implied importance on competitiveness to him/her.

Ok guys, well I decided on going with Dwarfs! Yep, another Dwarf player. Well first thing I did was get myself the codex, read it as well as looked at the reports done by Red_Zeke and Orzabal. So I have a general idea of where I would like to be. Now I know that I have for example too many points in Special for anything under 3k point games. But I would just like the ability to run any combination of those. Anyways here goes

80x GW Warriors w/2xFC (this will give me the ability to run 2 full hordes if I wish)

22x Quarellers, GW, FC (again options here for either a 20man FC or 20man just with Muso)

40x Hammerers, FC

2x Grudge Throwers

2x Cannons

2x Organ Guns

1x Gyro

Now my questions:

1. Do I want to invest time/money/points into Rangers or Thunderers?

2. Do I want to take a second look at Miners?

3. Do I want to take a second look at Iron Breakers?

4. Do I want to take a second look at Slayers?

5. Do I want more than 1 Gyro'copter?

6. Do I want an Anvil?

7. Should I consider HW/Shield Warriors?

Thanks for your help.

TowMater wrote:Now my questions:

1. Do I want to invest time/money/points into Rangers or Thunderers?

2. Do I want to take a second look at Miners?

3. Do I want to take a second look at Iron Breakers?

4. Do I want to take a second look at Slayers?

5. Do I want more than 1 Gyro'copter?

6. Do I want an Anvil?

7. Should I consider HW/Shield Warriors?

Thanks for your help.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Maybe
4. No
5. No
6. Yes
7. Ehh, no.

As for the stuff you got, that's a really good starting army. Keep in mind, Quarellers and Warriors can be upgraded to Rangers, so no money would be invested (but points would be), regarding question #1. Also, #1, #2, and #6 kind of go a bit hand in hand, as an Anvil let's you utilize Miners and Rangers even better (extra movement). Miners and Anvils can be very useful, but I wouldn't necessarily call them "must-haves". Although the Anvil is close to a must-have, depending on your game size (anything below 2500 it's not needed really, imo. Plus how you use your Anvil may be contingent on your opponent). I wouldn't necessarily recommend IBs but I use them and love them mostly for their fluff, looks, and they're solid when using the defensive strategy. And I think your Special pts are fine, actually. Also, you'll need a Lord - I'd recommend a Runelord (even if you don't get an Anvil) and another combat Lord (most would have an unkillable-type Lord build, but I find he survives just fine w/ the unstoppable killing machine build, so any Lord model should suffice) - and a BSB.

But in all honesty, your army looks better than mine! (I only have 1 GT and 1 Organ Gun and 0 Hammerers )

I don't know guys. With ogres/O&G/TK they released a LOT of new models. I'd hate to see someone buy a bunch of models that were replaced with "better" ones soon.

On that vein, I'd stay away from buying metal miniatures unless you can get them dirt cheap.

Why avoid metal? the alternative isn't that great(unless you mean buy plastic only).

I agree that it's kinda a waste to start an army only to have it be redone in a years time with all new models.

well, OP said he wants to play ASAP and never said that money was a factor (although he did ask for prices). So I suggest he spend however much on whatever he gets and plays w/ that for the next 10~15 months or however long it'll take for Dwarfs to get their updates (VC and Empire heavily rumored for next 2 and 40k 6th Ed will prob take a chunk out of time in-between any Codices/Army Books).

I could see buying 1000 points worth and just playing small games for the time being until they are updated.

Dwarves are bery forgiving so I would go there if I were you.