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Hey guys,

So about the flayer arrays on the two new Necron arks, do they each have a 180 arc for firing or does it have to be focused on a squad that the array is facing?

any help would be appreciated, thanks!

Definitely not 180 . I have the arks, and if the flayers could actually tilt they would have about a 45 degree ark at most.

As it says, they use them to "broadside" enemies. That means shooting out from the sides. That why each flayer array may shoot at different targets, because its almost impossible for them to see the same target unless a unit was wrapped around it.

With all Vehicle Arcs of Fire you use the actual swivel possible by the models(or what would be possible had they not been glued in a particular position), or the defined arcs in the BRB(45* for a hull mount).

Barbobot says he has one and they get about a 45; therefore they get about a 45(actual model in hand and a protractor would give you the exact arc.)

For weapons on vehicles that have multiple barrels(such as T-L, Arrays, or similar) I believe we hashed out that any barrel could have LOS/ trace LOS within the arc and the weapon can fire it's full shots(since there is never any permission to fire less than the full number of shots from a single weapon), and the LOS will be fully considered from along that one barrel(I.E. a single hurricane bolter barrel has clear LOS to a whole model in a single model unit; that unit does not gain a Cover save from all 3/6 of the hurricane bolter's shots).

What kel said is entirely correct as far as i know.

Quick look at my ghost ark verifies a 45 degree los on the guns, so it boils down whether or not you treat the five flayer arrays as a single gun or not.

In that sense, you should since they are listed as 2 flayer arrays. Therefore, you can draw los from any of the barrels since it is essentially just a really wide gun.

Okay, cheers all!

WanderingFox wrote:In that sense, you should since they are listed as 2 flayer arrays. Therefore, you can draw los from any of the barrels since it is essentially just a really wide gun.

It's a single weapon that just happens to have 5 guns. Think of it like a hurricane bolter with more guns but can't shoot straight forward.

The dex goes out of its way to note that the guns are separate and not just one weapon iirc. Therefore, each draws los separately. They are five guns, but must all fire at the same target.

Then again, there are already a lot of retcons in the codex itself. What's one more rules change?

Kitzz wrote:The dex goes out of its way to note that the guns are separate and not just one weapon iirc. Therefore, each draws los separately. They are five guns, but must all fire at the same target.

Then again, there are already a lot of retcons in the codex itself. What's one more rules change?

Actually the dex infers the exact opposite. Each array is a single weapon very much like a hurricane bolter.

I don't have the model, but I have seen photos from above which someone put arcs on that suggests 90 arcs (maybe a little more).

I'll try find it again.

^ that is more or less the right firing arc

Not really because it shows a 90° firing arc, but hull mounted weapons have a 45° arc of fire.

So it would be a lot less than that shown.

The guns do actually swivel. The fixed 45 degree arc is for hull-mounted guns that can't physically swivel on the model (like a Vindicator's hull mounted gun).


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Kommissar Kel wrote:With all Vehicle Arcs of Fire you use the actual swivel possible by the models(or what would be possible had they not been glued in a particular position), or the defined arcs in the BRB(45* for a hull mount).

Barbobot says he has one and they get about a 45; therefore they get about a 45(actual model in hand and a protractor would give you the exact arc.)

Agreed.

Kommissar Kel wrote:For weapons on vehicles that have multiple barrels(such as T-L, Arrays, or similar) I believe we hashed out that any barrel could have LOS/ trace LOS within the arc and the weapon can fire it's full shots(since there is never any permission to fire less than the full number of shots from a single weapon), and the LOS will be fully considered from along that one barrel(I.E. a single hurricane bolter barrel has clear LOS to a whole model in a single model unit; that unit does not gain a Cover save from all 3/6 of the hurricane bolter's shots).

I don't think we ever reached full consensus on that. The rules don't tell us how to treat weapons with multiple barrels for LOS, as the phrasing given doesn't allow for the possibility.

Okay, thanks Mannahnin, missed the part about the guns can swivel. My apologies.

As to how to handle multipe barrels, wouldn't you have to draw line of sight from each barrel? I mena it is possible to have 3 barrels blocked by terrain but still have the other 2 able to fire.
The codex does say it is an array of 5 gauss flayers so it seems logical that you would have to draw LOS from each weapon.

No, as it is a single weapon, "Gauss Flayer Array", so you draw LOS from "the" barrel
The rules simply dont cover weapons with more than one barrel.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, as it is a single weapon, "Gauss Flayer Array", so you draw LOS from "the" barrel
The rules simply dont cover weapons with more than one barrel.

Page 58, main rulebook under vehicle weapons and line of sight; "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapon's mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models." {emphasis mine}

So the rules cover weapons with more than one barrel. You trace LOS from each weapon's mounting and along it's barrel.

From the Necron Codex, page 53, "The Ghost Ark has two separate arrays of five gauss flayers..." and "The two arrays can shoot at different targets, although all guns in the same array must shoot at the same target." {emphasis mine}

The is no weapon listing stats for a gauss flayer array, there is however a listing of stats for the gauss flayer.
The array has 5 of these weapons, so the rules say that you would trace LOS from each gauss flayer ffrom its mounting, which is down the side of the ark, and along its barrel, each one of them.


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@Mannahnin - I just re-read BarBoBot's post. He actually said;

BarBoBot wrote:Definitely not 180 . I have the arks, and if the flayers could actually tilt they would have about a 45 degree ark at most.

So he said "if the flayers could actuall tilt" so the flayers on the model probably can't. And in that case they are hull mounted and they would have a maximum fire arc of 45° by rule.

time wizard wrote:Page 58, main rulebook under vehicle weapons and line of sight; "When firing a vehicle's weapons...

Weapons, as in more than one weapon.

time wizard wrote:@Mannahnin - I just re-read BarBoBot's post. He actually said;

BarBoBot wrote:Definitely not 180 . I have the arks, and if the flayers could actually tilt they would have about a 45 degree ark at most.

So he said "if the flayers could actuall tilt" so the flayers on the model probably can't. And in that case they are hull mounted and they would have a maximum fire arc of 45° by rule.

Sure, but I believe he meant his are glued. I've handled the model and IIRC they can swivel.

Time - "weapons" means "more than one weapon". This means the "them" refers to the MULTIPLE weapons on the vehicle, and "each weapon's" means, for each weapon *singular*, trace a line along ITS barrel, *singular*

No, there are NO rules covering ANY requirements on tracing LOS along every barrel. this was covered a while ago with LST and whether you get a cover save if one barrel can see and the other cannot. The rules simply dont say either way

Okay, I have a dread with a lascannon and a missile launcher.
It is partially behind a building.
I have clear LOS to an enemy vehicle with the missil launcher, but the lascannon's LOS is blocked by the building.
So you're saying I can fire both the missile launcher and lascannon at the vehicle because I can draw LOS from one of the weapons?

No, you are misunderstanding.

You have 2 weapons, and two barrels - that is fine. The rules cover that. One weapon cannot draw LOS, so cannot fire. Done.

The rules do not cover one *weapon*, *singular*, that has MULTIPLE barrels. Note the SINGULAR usage of "weapon's barrel" in the rules you quoted

So, to take the example I gave: you have a LST with one launcher with clear, entirely unobstructed LOS. The other is behind a solid wall with no LOS. Can you fire, and do you give a cover save?

Well according to the rule I must trace it down the weapons barrel. Oops, there are 2 barrels. So, already we have an issue - I am only allowed to trace LOS down THE barrel, not barrels.

And so on.

the rules simply do not cover one SINGULAR weapon with MULTIPLE barrels

time wizard wrote:Okay, I have a dread with a lascannon and a missile launcher.
It is partially behind a building.
I have clear LOS to an enemy vehicle with the missil launcher, but the lascannon's LOS is blocked by the building.
So you're saying I can fire both the missile launcher and lascannon at the vehicle because I can draw LOS from one of the weapons?

You answer is here:

time wizard wrote: "...then trace the line of sight from each weapon's mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models."

You trace along ML and you can see target, it can fire.
You trace along LC and you can't see target, it can't fire.

When firing the GFA, the gun has multiple barrels and the rules don't say how to handle the case where some of the barrels can see and some can't.
But if only one of the barrels can see the target, then the weapon can see the target, so it should get to shoot.

A better analogy in your dread example, is if the Dread has a TL Lascannon, and the lower cannon was behind a wall and the upper cannon was over the wall, would you say it couldn't fire?

The weapons on the arc can NOT swivel...I have the model, and there is absolulely NO swivel. If you dont glue the pieces in place, they are able to move up and down, however, there is ZERO side to side swivel. (which is what we are talking about unless I missed something)

The guns on each array are mounted on 2 ball-bearing looking pieces( which actually have no movement) so IF the ark were realistically functional, there WOULD be some side to side movement, but it would be VERY limited, not only by its own design, but also due to the fact that each gun is mounted inbetween the "ribs" of the ark. It would only be able to move a small amount before the "ribs" would prevent it fom moving any further. (assuming it was actually able to swivel)

IMHO being completely unbiased it looks like only a 45 degree ark would be possible. (even if you could actually swivel them)






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this pic illustrates exactly what I was saying about the guns being between 2 "ribs" of the ark leaving very little room for swivel. (if it COULD swivel that is)

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules do not cover one *weapon*, *singular*, that has MULTIPLE barrels. Note the SINGULAR usage of "weapon's barrel" in the rules you quoted

The gauss flayer array is not listed anywhere as a singular weapon with multiple barrels.
There is no listing for a gauss flayer array in the weapons summary on the last page.
What there is, is a listing for a gauss flayer.
The rules for the gauss flayer array on page 53 of the Necron codex specify that the ark has two arrays of five gauss flayers. Not 2 multi-barrel arrays. Not 2 arrays with 5 barrels.
The rule on page 53 also says, "...all guns in the same array must shoot at the same target." Guns. Plural.
And the main rules say you draw LOS along each weapon's barrel.
How may barrels in the array? There are 5.
And I play LSTs and have had it happen where I can draw LOS from one typhoon launcher but not the other, and in that case I fire one shot, not 2. But that's just how I play it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:the rules simply do not cover one SINGULAR weapon with MULTIPLE barrels

True, they do not. But in the case of the gauss flayer, it is not a singular weapon with multiple barrels, it is an array, a weapon system, composed of 5 weapons. Not multiple barrels, multiple weapons.
But we'll get nowhere by arguing this back and forth, a FAQ is the only way this will be settled, so we can agree to disagree.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote: A better analogy in your dread example, is if the Dread has a TL Lascannon, and the lower cannon was behind a wall and the upper cannon was over the wall, would you say it couldn't fire?

From the main rulebook page 31, under twin-linked weapons, "A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon of that type..." so if the dread had one barrel over the wall and one behind it, it could fire its twin-linked lascannon with no problem.

Why is this being debated so heavily? It seems obvious to me that if you were just outside of the necessary arc, youd turn whihmch doesn't count as movement. This puts you straight in line with the target, IF your opponent is going to be that much of a pain.

Can you imagine someone getting a protractor out in the middle of a game and saying "sorry, 2 of those guns are 1 degree out, they can't shoot", or, "2 missiles from that 6 shot missile pod are behind cover, they can't shoot", that just sounds like bad sportsmanship lol

So then if I score a weapon-destroyed result on a Ghost Ark, does it destroy one gauss flayer or the entire array?

kitch102 wrote:Why is this being debated so heavily? It seems obvious to me that if you were just outside of the necessary arc, youd turn whihmch doesn't count as movement. This puts you straight in line with the target, IF your opponent is going to be that much of a pain.

Because you can't turn in the shooting phase, and turning during movement might make some of your other weapons go out of arc.

Can you imagine someone getting a protractor out in the middle of a game and saying "sorry, 2 of those guns are 1 degree out, they can't shoot", or, "2 missiles from that 6 shot missile pod are behind cover, they can't shoot", that just sounds like bad sportsmanship lol

Yeah, allowing a 45 degree arc gun to shoot 90-180 degrees is a sign of good sportsmanship.

Corollax wrote:So then if I score a weapon-destroyed result on a Ghost Ark, does it destroy one gauss flayer or the entire array?

Whole array of flayers

Corollax wrote:So then if I score a weapon-destroyed result on a Ghost Ark, does it destroy one gauss flayer or the entire array?

haha that is a very good point. Reading though this back and forth, if the quotes from TW are correct that that seems pretty solid in favor or there is 5 guns on each side that fire at the same target and thus would have separate LoS. However, that causes a conflict on weapon destroyed rolls because you are classifying them as separate weapons for LoS, however their weapon entry lists (at least in AB) the array as a whole. Conflicting info there.

BlueDagger wrote:

Corollax wrote:So then if I score a weapon-destroyed result on a Ghost Ark, does it destroy one gauss flayer or the entire array?

haha that is a very good point. Reading though this back and forth, if the quotes from TW are correct that that seems pretty solid in favor or there is 5 guns on each side that fire at the same target and thus would have separate LoS. However, that causes a conflict on weapon destroyed rolls because you are classifying them as separate weapons for LoS, however their weapon entry lists (at least in AB) the array as a whole. Conflicting info there.

Not really.

Land Speeder Typhoon has a Typhoon missile launcher. One launcher si mounted on each side of the speeder. Very possible to be able to draw LOS from one launcher but not the other. As I said in an earlier post, I have had it happen where I could only get one shot off because the LOS to the other launcher was blocked.

But when I suffered a weapon destroyed result, then the typhoon missile launcher was gone, so both launchers were removed.

Unless it makes sense that the Ghost Ark could 'hide' behind a building, draw LOS to your unit with only 1 gun barrel and be 50% obscured to get a cover save, yet be able to hit your unit with all fire gauss flayers.

Not a valid comparison. The Typhoon missile launcher is just a single entry and has no wording to the nature of 2 missile launchers. Therefor you would draw LoF to one of the barrels and fire the full volley. Any LoS descrepency between the two sides is merely fluff at that point.

That's like saying an Eldar wave Serpent with a TL EML that has one of it's EML barrels blocks no long counts as TL.