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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/12 21:07:37
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Fresh-Faced New User
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The reason I ask is because Wolf Guard are considered Infantry, and Crypteks are considered Infantry Characters.
This is basically about does a cryptek benefit from the hunters from hyperspace rule, if it is joined with a Deathmark squad. I have people telling me no, and you can't use the wolf guard as a precedent because they are only infantry and not infantry characters, so the Cryptek never actually becomes part of the deathmark unit, so he doesn't inherit the special rules.
And then they say because of the word "character" after infantry, you need to refer to the characters portion of the core rulebook.
Can anyone shed some light on this with supported rules? I would very much like to do the Harbinger of Despair + Deathmark combo. (Abyssal Staff & Hunters from Hyperspace)
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Check out the blog! www.40kChampion.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/12 21:35:17
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Flashy Flashgitz
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I had the same question. From what I have read it seems to be that the Cryptek can benefit from the Hunters from Hyperspace combo, but can not entire the battlefield via deepstrike with the unit. If you wanted to DS them close you would have to deploy them normally then use a veil.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/12 21:55:39
Subject: Re:Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Is an infantry character different than infantry? Rumor has it that the character portion is for something in 6th edition, but why would the 'character' at the end of the infantry make the crypteks work different than a wolf guard? Is their specifically something in the rule book for infantry characters? Because they aren't independent characters, otherwise they would have the rule listed in their profile.
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Check out the blog! www.40kChampion.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/12 22:33:51
Subject: Re:Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Infantry (Character) has no unique effect in the current edition. It's most likely something that will be showing up in 6th Edition when that releases.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/12 22:34:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/12 23:00:36
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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Even if you use the Space Wolves FAQ as a precedent, the Cryptek would still not be able to Deep Strike because 1) The Space Wolf FAQ does not specifically cover deep striking and 2) The main rulebook FAQ explicitly forbids a unit from deep striking if ALL of the models don't have the Deep Strike special rule. The main rulebook FAQ would be an exception to any precedent set by the Space Wolves FAQ.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/12 23:06:37
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Hunters from Hyperspace states the 'unit', meaning it is conferred to all ICs, Character Upgrades, your Great Uncle Joe, anybody who can legally be in the unit. Deep Strike is a specific Special Rule that the Deathmarks have, and the Cryptek does not, so he would not be able to Deep Strike. If he is attached to them in Reserve, then they would not be able to Deep Strike.
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I don't write the rules. My ego just lives and dies by them one model at a time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 01:32:30
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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Sorry, but that's not true and the main rulebook FAQ says otherwise. Crypteks do NOT have either the Hunters From Hyperspace or the Deep Strike rule.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 02:24:12
Subject: Re:Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan
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Nungunz wrote:Infantry (Character) has no unique effect in the current edition. It's most likely something that will be showing up in 6th Edition when that releases.
That is, it has no effect by itself at this point. However there are rules that target "Characters", like Deathleaper's "It's after me!", so now we have some indication of who are valid targets.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 03:30:39
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Ghaz wrote:Sorry, but that's not true and the main rulebook FAQ says otherwise. Crypteks do NOT have either the Hunters From Hyperspace or the Deep Strike rule.
I do agree with you about the Deep Strike rule, but not the HfH.
1. RULE BOOK, pg 47, CHARACTER TYPES: "Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the start of the game, [ ] and are effectively just another trooper in the unit, [ ]."
2. RULE BOOK, pg 48, INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS JOINING AND LEAVING UNITS: "Independent Characters are allowed to join other units."
3. RULE BOOK, pg 48, Special Rules: "Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, [ ]"
4. ORK CODEX, pg 38, PAINBOYZ: "He confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit."
5. NECRON CODEX, pg 36, Hunters from Hyperspace: "Any Deathmark unit that shoots at, or strikes blows against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a Wound on a roll of 2+."
1. Establishes that an upgrade character is part of a unit.
2. Establishes that an IC can be part of a unit.
3. Restricts Unit Special Rules from being conferred to ICs unless specified, like Deep Strike.
4. Here is an example of a model in a unit conferring a Special Rule to his unit, including ICs.
5. Here is another Special Rule that affects a unit.
Is there a dispute that the Cryptek is a part of the Deathmark unit? If so, then the rest of what I have to write doesn't matter. If he is part of the unit, and he shoots at, or strikes blows against, a unit marked with a prey counter, how can he not benefit from the unit wide ability? HfH does not say Deathmarks, it says Deathmark unit. If he does not benefit from this rule, how can an IC benefit from the unit wide Feel No Pain rule? Or have I and everybody I know who uses it been playing it wrong all these years? (I am not being sarcastic, it is totally possible I have been doing things wrong all along.)
Anyway, I just read the FAQ again, and I can't find what you are referring to. Could you please quote it or give us a reference other than 'the main rulebook FAQ'?
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I don't write the rules. My ego just lives and dies by them one model at a time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 03:33:36
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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Ghaz wrote:Sorry, but that's not true and the main rulebook FAQ says otherwise. Crypteks do NOT have either the Hunters From Hyperspace or the Deep Strike rule.
I agree about the deep strike, because this situation is specified in the BRB, and the SW FAQ is a precedent exception only with regard to infiltrate and scout. However, the Crypteks DO benefit from the Hunters From Hyperspace rule. Here's why: -The HFH rule benefits the entire unit, as per the Necron codex, pg. 36 -The Cryptek can join the unit, as per the Necron codex, pg. 90 -The Cryptek is not an Independent Character, demonstrated by the lack of the IC special rule, as per the Necron codex, pg. 32 & 90 :. Therefore, RAW the Cryptek benefits from the HFH rule. It's black-letter law. I dare you to try and find a way around this. I'll even save you some time: 1. The Cryptek is classified as "Infantry (character)" ... at present this has absolutely no effect in 40k, so it shall be treated as if it does not exist. To claim it has any effect is not a right you have any more so than can you make up your own rules. 2. The Cryptek has precedent in that it does not gain the deep strike ability: ... this is not a precedent, it is actually an exception that is clearly specified in the BRB, and is not a general rule for non- ICs. EDIT: Are you kidding me!? You Ninja'd me almost word-for-word!? Should I start pulling out my fillings and constructing a Faraday cage?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/13 03:35:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 04:32:13
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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And exactly what gives you the idea that he gets the Hunters From Hyperspace rule just because he's not an Independent Character? If anything, we have a precedent that he doesn't. From the Codex Space Wolves FAQ:
Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before the game begins because of its Scouts special rule, choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using those abilities.
So what makes a Cryptek different in this case when its crystal clear that the Wolf Guard do NOT get any of the special rules of the unit they're assigned to?
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 04:49:20
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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Ghaz wrote:And exactly what gives you the idea that he gets the Hunters From Hyperspace rule just because he's not an Independent Character? If anything, we have a precedent that he doesn't. From the Codex Space Wolves FAQ:
Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before the game begins because of its Scouts special rule, choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using those abilities.
So what makes a Cryptek different in this case when its crystal clear that the Wolf Guard do NOT get any of the special rules of the unit they're assigned to?
But yet, the entire unit DOES get to Infiltrate and Scout. Including the WG. The WG does not get left behind while his friends go make scout moves; he gets to make the scout move as well because it is an ability that is bestowed upon the entire unit, and everyone that is a part of that unit. Just like Hunters From Hyperspace.
And you still have not addressed my nice little three-point RAW explanation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 05:42:25
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Thank you for the reference materiel. Ghaz wrote:And exactly what gives you the idea that he gets the Hunters From Hyperspace rule just because he's not an Independent Character?
Because even if the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have these abilities BEFORE he joined the squad, does he not benefit from/use them once he has joined? Ghaz wrote:So what makes a Cryptek different in this case when its crystal clear that the Wolf Guard do NOT get any of the special rules of the unit they're assigned to?
The only thing they made crystal clear is that a Wolf Guard Pack Leader not having the Special Rules beforehand does not take them away from the unit, which would happen if he was an IC. I actually think this is a strong precedent of Characters, not Independent OR Upgrade, utilising the unit wide Special Rules of a squad, and not the opposite, which you claim. Does a Pack Leader not get to Infiltrate, Scout, Outflank, or use Behind Enemy Lines if he is part of the Wolf Scout Pack because he does not have those rules? No, he can do these things. Why would a Kryptek not get to use HfH if he is part of a Deathmark Squad if he does not have that rule?
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I don't write the rules. My ego just lives and dies by them one model at a time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:00:25
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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azazel the cat wrote:But yet, the entire unit DOES get to Infiltrate and Scout. Including the WG. The WG does not get left behind while his friends go make scout moves; he gets to make the scout move as well because it is an ability that is bestowed upon the entire unit, and everyone that is a part of that unit.
Once again read the part of the FAQ that I highlighted that says just the opposite. They do NOT get the units special rules, but it does not prevent the unit from using them. Deep striking however requires the EVERY MODEL to be able to deep strike. The Cryptek can not as he does not have the Hunters From Hyperspace rule.
Ghenghis Jon wrote:The only thing they made crystal clear is that a Wolf Guard Pack Leader not having the Special Rules beforehand does not take them away from the unit, which would happen if he was an IC. I actually think this is a strong precedent of Characters, not Independent OR Upgrade, utilising the unit wide Special Rules of a squad, and not the opposite, which you claim. Does a Pack Leader not get to Infiltrate, Scout, Outflank, or use Behind Enemy Lines if he is part of the Wolf Scout Pack because he does not have those rules? No, he can do these things. Why would a Kryptek not get to use HfH if he is part of a Deathmark Squad if he does not have that rule?
Again, read the Space Wolf FAQ that says that those abilities are not granted to the Wolf Guard and that the unit can use them even so and then read the main rulebook FAQ that says EVERY MODEL most have the deep strike rules in order to deep strike. The main rulebook FAQ is an exception that the Space Wolf FAQ in no way covers or contradicts. If Wolf Scouts could deep strike the wording between the two FAQs would NOT allow them to deep strike with an attached Wolf Guard.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:08:35
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Ghenghis Jon wrote:I do agree with you about the Deep Strike rule, but not the HfH.
Like I said above, I agree with you about him not being able to Deep Strike.
As for the Hunters From Hyperspace, are you saying that the Cryptek cannot use it? Or that even though he can use it, he does not have it? Do you have a semantics issue with saying that a Crytptek 'has' HfH, as opposed to saying that he just uses HfH?
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I don't write the rules. My ego just lives and dies by them one model at a time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:09:50
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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I've got a better idea: why don't you just deal with this instead. We're not talking about Space Wolves. The answer to this question is found inside the Necron codex. Since specific trumps general, we should recognize that any principle inferred from the SW codex can be overruled by the Necron codex, as it directly pertains to the Necrons. Here it is, with page numbers:
azazel the cat wrote:
However, the Crypteks DO benefit from the Hunters From Hyperspace rule. Here's why:
-The HFH rule benefits the entire unit, as per the Necron codex, pg. 36
-The Cryptek can join the unit, as per the Necron codex, pg. 90
-The Cryptek is not an Independent Character, demonstrated by the lack of the IC special rule, as per the Necron codex, pg. 32 & 90
:. Therefore, RAW the Cryptek benefits from the HFH rule. It's black-letter law.
I do not know how much more clear the RAW can be.
- A
- B
:. C
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:11:22
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Just to make it clear, neither I nor Azazel is suggesting that he can Deep Strike. Automatically Appended Next Post: azazel the cat wrote:we should recognize that any principle inferred from the SW codex can be overruled by the Necron codex,
I still think that the SW precedent is a good tool to go by, and not just because it supports my case, but because this is how Characters, not Independent nor Upgrade, have been treated within the context of the rules by GW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/13 06:15:09
I don't write the rules. My ego just lives and dies by them one model at a time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:18:27
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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Ghenghis Jon wrote:Just to make it clear, neither I nor Azazel is suggesting that he can Deep Strike. Automatically Appended Next Post: azazel the cat wrote:we should recognize that any principle inferred from the SW codex can be overruled by the Necron codex,
I still think that the SW precedent is a good tool to go by, and not just because it supports my case, but because this is how Characters, not Independent nor Upgrade, have been treated within the context of the rules by GW. I do agree, but it's a superfluous point here. My argument is entirely housed within the Necron codex, and no precedent is required. The codex clearly shows that Crypteks are considered part of the unit, and that the HfH applies to the entire unit, therefore the Cryptek benefits. It's indisputable in the RAW. EDIT: Yeah, I agree that they cannot deep strike. There's no question of that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/13 06:19:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:22:18
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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The Hive Mind
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azazel the cat wrote:It's indisputable in the RAW.
Not that I disagree with you, but St. Celestine dying to a JotWW or similar remove from play abilities was pretty indisputable as well.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 06:33:34
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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rigeld2 wrote:azazel the cat wrote:It's indisputable in the RAW.
Not that I disagree with you, but St. Celestine dying to a JotWW or similar remove from play abilities was pretty indisputable as well.
I know nothing about that. But if you're implying that a FAQ screwed over Celestine, well it is entirely possible that will happen with the Deathmark-Cryptek units. However, until that fateful event, my point is that it is indisputable as per the rules of the new Necron codex.
...And just on the off-chance that GW lurks in forums for their FAQs, I cannot allow IG players to intentionally misread rules in order to rob xenos of any competitiveness whatsoever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 08:11:43
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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azazel, actually RFP attacks (i.e. JotWW) got screwed over by a FAQ. St Celestine is able to came back from those...
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 08:25:27
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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Happyjew wrote:azazel, actually RFP attacks (i.e. JotWW) got screwed over by a FAQ. St Celestine is able to came back from those...
Thanks for the clarification. I actually didn't know that. Anyway, I'll reiterate:
azazel the cat wrote:But if you're implying that a FAQ screwed over JotWW, well it is entirely possible that will happen with the Deathmark-Cryptek units. However, until that fateful event, my point is that it is indisputable as per the rules of the new Necron codex.
...And just on the off-chance that GW lurks in forums for their FAQs, I cannot allow IG players to intentionally misread rules in order to rob xenos of any competitiveness whatsoever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 15:56:37
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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-The HFH rule benefits the entire unit, as per the Necron codex, pg. 36
And 'the unit' described on page 36 is Deathmarks only.
-The Cryptek can join the unit, as per the Necron codex, pg. 90
He joins the unit, he is not a part of it in the army list entry.
-The Cryptek is not an Independent Character, demonstrated by the lack of the IC special rule, as per the Necron codex, pg. 32 & 90
Inconsequential for the discussion at hand.
Therefore, RAW the Cryptek benefits from the HFH rule. It's black-letter law.
RAW he does NOT have the Hunters From Hyperspace rule. He can NOT benefit from the units rule because the main rulebook FAQ specdically says that he must have the ability to deep strike himself for the unit to deep strike. You need to find something that actually GIVES the ability to the Cryptek because the FAQ won't allow him to use the unit's ability to deep strike if he doesn't have it himself.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 16:02:19
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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The Hive Mind
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Ghaz wrote:RAW he does NOT have the Hunters From Hyperspace rule. He can NOT benefit from the units rule because the main rulebook FAQ specdically says that he must have the ability to deep strike himself for the unit to deep strike. You need to find something that actually GIVES the ability to the Cryptek because the FAQ won't allow him to use the unit's ability to deep strike if he doesn't have it himself.
How are HfH and Deep Strike linked?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 16:20:20
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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My bad. I think we've all meant Ethereal Interception.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 16:20:52
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I would not be shocked if the Cron FAQ allowed attached models to benefit from HFH, since they allow ICs attached to Ork Kommandos to use their special rule. However it's GW, so flip a coin.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 16:27:26
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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The Hive Mind
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Ghaz wrote:My bad. I think we've all meant Ethereal Interception.
No - most people here have agreed that the unit wouldn't be able to Deep Strike. That's unrelated to HfH.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 16:45:03
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Ghaz wrote:My bad. I think we've all meant Ethereal Interception.
Nope. Apparently, just you. Out of curiosity, do you think a Crptek would benefit from HfH?
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I don't write the rules. My ego just lives and dies by them one model at a time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 17:34:45
Subject: Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Lieutenant General
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Trying to save some face here, but it took that many posts to figure out we were talking about different rules? Tsk, tsk
Anyway, now to the horribly named and misleading rule. Using the Space Wolf FAQ as a precedent (ugh) it would appear that a Cryptek would benefit from the horribly named an misleading rule.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/13 20:46:14
Subject: Re:Infantry vs Infantry Characters
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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...So after all this, you agree that the HFH rule (which allows hits & wounds on a 2+) would benefit an attached Cryptek... because you always thought so, and you were actually arguing about a completely different rule...
Even in victory, I feel absolutely defeated.
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