Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, this question recently came up in a tournament i am hoping to take part in. Basically, It is 5 points, and i have just enough unit to fill this out. however, one of my units of press gangers is going to be short two models. I am paying 6 points for 10 of them, but only taking 8 of them. I personally cannot think of a way this benefits me, in fact, i am playing at a disadvantage. However i do appreciate that there are rules to tournaments and there might be some way i am inadvertently gaining an advantage. The rules for the tourney don't prohibit it, but i wanted to check out what the internet has to say on the matter.

canadianone wrote:So, this question recently came up in a tournament i am hoping to take part in. Basically, It is 5 points, and i have just enough unit to fill this out. however, one of my units of press gangers is going to be short two models. I am paying 6 points for 10 of them, but only taking 8 of them. I personally cannot think of a way this benefits me, in fact, i am playing at a disadvantage. However i do appreciate that there are rules to tournaments and there might be some way i am inadvertently gaining an advantage. The rules for the tourney don't prohibit it, but i wanted to check out what the internet has to say on the matter.

Message the TO. He'll let you know how to play it.

I'm assuming you meant that the tournament is 50 points?

yup, he said he couldn't think of a reason not to, but he was going to think on it. I just dont want him to allow it and then realize that some how i am gaining an advantage by doing this.

If he allows it, it's in. If it's the wrong call he won't make the
mistake again.

Only tournament I've ever played in was a Steamroller tourney. They don't allow you to be more than 2 points UNDER the points cap for the event.
It started out as a 35 pointer, but switched to a 50 pointer instead. I ended up loaning several units from the TO (he offered) so that I could take part.

Well, this isn't a points issue, im at points level, im just missing two models from a unit, and due to privateer press' issues with getting out models, im not overly hopeful.

Just out of curiousity, how come you aren't allowed to play with less points?

In warhammer fantasy/40k which I am most used to, this would never be an issue.

Playing with less points would only damage you.

Steamroller rules require you be within two points.

What could possible be the reason?

Baxx wrote:What could possible be the reason?

Once players are allowed to do things like that (leave models off their list, or not buy full points) you end up in a situation where what would normally be caught as an accidental error has to be left standing.

If your list is missing two points, or your army is missing two models, that's an irregularity that a pessimist will tell you will only cause problems later on in the tournament.

Example with tournament level drama potential: You buy a unit of six models, and deploy five. Part way through the game, after one of the models gets removed, you "remember" that sixth model, and want to put it on the board. Coincidentally, that new model is going to be in the perfect position to help you win the game.

On the other hand, requiring a player to be within X points of the game size seems to be a reaction to "optimized" lists and to avoid similar "Gosh, I forgot to add X to my list. Can I correct it now with this model that happens to be the perfect counter for this other guy's list?" shenanigans.

That's of course leaving out both the obvious financial motive that Privateer Press appreciates the fact that you'd actually put together a complete X point list to play in the official tournament format, and the obvious humanitarian motive of stopping you from deliberately hurting yourself. Not to mention the fact that somewhere you have to draw a line and tell the person without enough models that they can't play because the other player would like a reasonable chance of a fair fight. Rather than put the bar lower (like preventing a person from submitting a 25 point list for a 35 point tournament), the people setting up the format chose "within two points" as the cut off.

There's also the fact that DC's famously beaten people in Mk I with two models on the table, and since he helps write the rules for Steamroller...

Baxx wrote:Just out of curiousity, how come you aren't allowed to play with less points?
In warhammer fantasy/40k which I am most used to, this would never be an issue.
Playing with less points would only damage you.

Probably it's because PP does care to have a clear, uderstandable and common tournament format. Something that GW never, ever considered to introduce...

The reason for not allowing underpointed lists is because an 'unfair' disadvantage for one player is an unfair advantage for all of his opponents.

Suppose I play with 15 points in a 50 point tournament, all my opponents basically get a free win, which skews the results both for the tournament score and for Strength of Schedule (everyone who played against me will have terrible SoS).

That being said, I don't think 2 missing models out of a unit will cause any kind of an extreme disruption. I would just try to find a way to borrow the two models from someone, honestly.

That's the only reasonable answer I've seen so far.

Why wouldnt you just proxy in the other 2 with empty basis or something to signify what they are. Just make sure theres a clear understanding of the front/back arc. And when 2 of your units die you just trade them out for the empty ones.

Because proxy and empty bases are not usually allowed at tournaments, and for good reasons?

I can understand proxing whole units of stuff but if you use it to proxy a couple people in one unit i dont see the problem.

At a friendly game? No, no problem. In a tournament? That is not allowed where I come from. You'd have to play with what you got, not what you don't.