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I currently have this list but my win-loss ratio is 1-2, am I missing something?

Librarian - Terminator Armour - Null Zone - Vortex of Doom
5x TH/SS Terminators
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon - DCCW
5x Sternguard - 3x combi-metal - Razorback LasPlas

10x Tactical Squad - Lascannon + Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
10x Tactical Squad - Lascannon + Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
10x Tactical Squad - Missle launcher + Plasmagun - Razorback LasPlas

Devastator - Lascannon + 3x Missle Launcher - Razorback LasPlas
Devastator - 4x Missle Launcher - Razorback LasPlas
Thunderfire Cannon

For this list, it works best against mid range armies. How do I make it more competitive against close combat armies (e.g. Orks, Dark Eldars, ...)?

Well it doesn't seem like that bad a list, in fact it seems fairly solid, but you have a few odd options.

Vortex of Doom. um really. It will either go very well or you will lose one of your own units, far too risky. Get the avenger, it's pretty good. (one of the best actually mainly because you don't get many good powers in this codex).

dreadnought could do with a heavy flamer upgrade, makes him considerably better.

terminators and sternguard are solid units.

las/plas razorbacks are as always very good, and you have a nice number of them.

For your army, missile launcher/flamer seems like the best combo for your tactical marines, as you have enough anti-tank floating around, and you say you need to deal with CC armies. Lascannon are overpriced for tactical marines, don't buy it on them.

devastators 4x missile launcher is the best all round option, as the heavy weapons cost so much you really want to keep them as cheap as possible. i can see the reasoning for the 1 lascannon (for the 1 BS5 shot), if so run both squads the same, otherwise you're helping your opponent with targeting.

thunderfire cannon is very good against light infantry, just be careful to put it somewhere not completely visible, as it is quite easy to kill.

Hope this is useful.

The termies and sternguard are the two things I would want to change.

Assault termies need a method to get into cc. At the moment I guess you hope you can deepstrike close and then hope you can find some cc in your favour. I wager you teleport down and then ork boyz charge you, mostly kill you off before you can hit back. Not sure they are right for your list.

Sternguard are expensive and want to shoot their pretty guns, then you put them in a razorback. The set up could also be improved however I am not sure they can really fit your list.

I would probably suggest replacing the two units by rifledreads this will work well with the razorbacks. Then spending some points on some fast options to spend the remaining point

Also las/plas is not so great for vanilla razorbacks, you most likely only get to shoot one gun.

You need to avoid cc, and usually it best to make sure you can get the charge on orks. The cc rules are in your favour, as you can feed squads to the orks which then completely block other assaults on your units: to be clear you can line up 10 tactical marines with small gaps then the orks have to charge this one unit or somehow walk around to be able to charge anything else, if there are no lootas then you can make the wall using razorbacks.

Nilla devs are pretty crappy. I would suggest either dakka preds to sit in deployment zone and fire away or rifle dreads for more maneuverable long range fire. The thunder fire is good against essentially anything but MEQ. So that options depends on local meta.

The terms really do need more mobility either in the form of a landraider or you can give the libbi gate. I suggest gate personally.

You asked about cc but the thing is nilla marines REALLY should stay out of cc at all costs. I worry that if you get rid of the Melta then you are going to have a tough time against av 13 spam which I face all the time and will be even more popular with necrons out. For that reason the lascannons although expensive may be worth it. However MLs are free and versatile.

For anti horde your sternguard can take two heavy flamers. I agree wig an above post however that they Donnie compliment your list well.

Well, assault cannons kinda suck. I'd replace it with MM or TLLC vs. DE, rifledreads (aka trukk murderers) are your best bet against raiders and venoms.

I second lascannons being a bit pricy in tacsquads. Krak missiles already ID t4 and if it doesn't destroy a raider it's usually because of a miss or cover save, not the penetration roll. Plus missiles have frag mode for 10pts less so yeah.

I like seeing vanilla devastators, they're so cool. My missile devs actually have a HB rather than an LC for the signum, which has worked out for me in the past. This way the HB can actually kill stuff once in a while instead of just missing 2/3 shots like usual.

Ass termies are nice against some melee units but they'll get swarmed by orks and torrented or tarpitted by DE warriors/wyches. You could at least take tactical termies that can shoot back.

If you're going to stick with vortex, I suggest a storm shield for the librarian. It's pretty stupid not to give him one when he already has terminator armour, but when you're casting vortex it's even worse.

@Almarine: Nilla Devs are terrible. Expensive. Zero mobility. and no special rules to make up for it.

The only redeeming quality of the devestators is that you can give them extra bodies to soak up wounds and you can combat squad. So by splitting the Devs squads and combat squadding tacticals you can have heavy weapons siting all over the deployment zone that are tough to remove and some are holding objectives. But now you are sinking even more points into a crappy unit. Stop the bleeding and use rifle dreads or dakka preds for long range support to your razors.

Since i don't have a model for rifle dread, will a ML + TLLC dread work?

I agree with some of your analysis that Assault Termies with Libby is currently not in a good shape. I have to deep strike them to get into cc but then they always get killed the turn they arrive.

I do not have a model for a Predator, will a Land Raider Redeemer work?

have you tried fitting the redeemer into your list to provide a transport for the terminators?

If you are rolling with limited choices play around a few games with different things to see what really works for you.
I do not know how the ML/tllc dread stacks up against a rifle dread. Damage output wise, i cannot imagine it'll make much of a difference. I am not sure what the points are though. That might be a good question for a seperate thread.

If you do end up sticking with the devs, your arrangement is good but 2-3 extra bodies helps a lot.

So taking in account your replies, here is what I have (which fits into what I actually have as well):

Librarian - Null Zone, The Avenger - Storm Shield and Terminator Armour
Dreadnought - ML TLLC
5x Sternguards - 3x combi-melta in a Drop Pod
5x TH/SS Terminators - LRR w/ Extra Armour
Tac Squad - Lascannon Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
Tac Squad - ML Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
Tac Squad - ML Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
Land Speeder Squadron - Heavy Flamer + Multi-Melta
Devastator - 4x ML - Razorback LasPlas

Still have a decent number of Razorback LasPlas. Terminators are now in better covers. Sternguards will blow up any vehicles they have on the table in turn 1. Land Speeder will harass and kill either a bunch of troops or a back armour 10 vehicle.

Opinions?

Deuce11 wrote:@Almarine: Nilla Devs are terrible. Expensive. Zero mobility. and no special rules to make up for it.

The only redeeming quality of the devestators is that you can give them extra bodies to soak up wounds and you can combat squad. So by splitting the Devs squads and combat squadding tacticals you can have heavy weapons siting all over the deployment zone that are tough to remove and some are holding objectives. But now you are sinking even more points into a crappy unit. Stop the bleeding and use rifle dreads or dakka preds for long range support to your razors.

I didn't say they were good, but they're not terrible. Just because BA devs are cheaper and long fangs can split fire without combatsquadding doesn't mean ours are anything less than worse in comparison. Long fangs are no more mobile and neither are BA devs unless you count a fast rhino, plus they have the vampire angst.

@OP: Maybe put a MM on the redeemer?

The list isn't bad, it is just very elite and will only win against elite armies. What have you been losing against?

I would probably lose the Terminators for a start. A single unit at 2k points won't last long and it appears they will be deep striking.

I would then switch the Devs and Thunderfire for triple auto/las Preds, this gives more armour saturation. Then to get those missile launchers back, take triple Land Speeder Typhoons.

leohart wrote:So taking in account your replies, here is what I have (which fits into what I actually have as well):

Librarian - Null Zone, The Avenger - Storm Shield and Terminator Armour
Dreadnought - ML TLLC
5x Sternguards - 3x combi-melta in a Drop Pod
5x TH/SS Terminators - LRR w/ Extra Armour
Tac Squad - Lascannon Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
Tac Squad - ML Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
Tac Squad - ML Meltagun - Razorback LasPlas
Land Speeder Squadron - Heavy Flamer + Multi-Melta
Devastator - 4x ML - Razorback LasPlas

Still have a decent number of Razorback LasPlas. Terminators are now in better covers. Sternguards will blow up any vehicles they have on the table in turn 1. Land Speeder will harass and kill either a bunch of troops or a back armour 10 vehicle.

Your almost there - a few suggestions - LRR is worthless... get a lascannon raider. Much better for this list type.
Tac squads - take the sergeants with combi-meltas. 2 melta shots instead of 1 in a critical situation can really win the game for you. The sternguard strike me as overly expensive for their role... a venerable dread w/ multimelta would do the same job, and probably do it better. TLLC + ML dread isn't that great... take a dual TL AC dread. Much better.
Opinions?

Dev. squads a source of razorbacks in the list. Dev. squads are good, they just are not as cheap and do not have FNP/shoot two things that other codices have but still they get job done. Some people put a lascannon in with MLs just in case, the cheapest way to do this is via a tactical squad, it is a cheap up grade, if you have a ton of MLs in your list you can afford one being upgraded to a lascannon. Also assault cannon are awesome they can hit hard armour and soft troops, what is not to like? apart from their range and to some degree their price.

Actually I think you are loosing direction of your list. Before you had a bunch of light troops giving covering fire then a bunch of armour travelling razorback speed. In particular I am not sure how you expect land raider to survive the trek across the battlefield.

Rifledreads are just good value, your current dread not so much though it adds an interesting firepower in your latest list.

So you have 4 dreads and razorback moving forward firing which is a good amount. Then the raider will want to rush ahead alone,, the drop pod is also isolated, the dev. squad is also waiting back by itself. The speeder is a suicidal unit but that was always going to be the case. Trying to fit in the sternguard and terminators in with razorbacks you have lost coherency of your list :(

Setup your squads more efficiently.
How about changing up your use of sternguard and tacs.

3 x 5 Tacs Vet Sgt w Combi-Melta in Las Plas Razorback
2 x 5 Sternguard w 2 Missile Launchers in Las Plas Razorback
1 x 7 SS/TH Termies
1 x Librarian in Termie Armor and SS
1 x Landraider Crusader

This loses the thunderfire and the dreadnought but adds a sternguard squad and 2 SS/TH termies in a crusader.

The crusader will give your army the punch it needs to assault

All this suggestions seem to indicate that I need to be able to convert between Crusader and Redeemer. Is there a way to do this with magnets?

yup!



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I did it for my friend


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oh and re: the devs. I stand by my... stance. Yes "they get the job done" but there are other options in the codex that get the very same job done more efficiently and with strategic advantages.

What differentiates the other marine dev equivalents is that the points and special rules for those entries make them efficient against their relative replacements.