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I have been torn as of late between how to devote points between Genestealers and Raveners. Genestealers for me have been the most effective unit in the book, but Raveners have been effective, even in units of three. I am looking here to start discussion about how the community uses them and why we each value them as such. Lets start with some things we know;

-Point for point based on rough math Raveners with rending claws and scything talons are slightly less capable in damage output on the charge compared to Genestealers with scything talons and rending claws but are more potent when being charged.
-Raveners are cheaper per wound than Genestealers. This means they are better against ordinary fire, but are hurt much more by S8 attacks. On the flip side though if they are taking these shots other MC are not.
-Genestealers have more deployment shenanigans (I am a big fan of infiltrating in cover/giving FNP with catalyst) but Raveners can charge 12" giving lots of flexibility for both units.
-Genestealers are troops, but they are recognized for their potency and will be targeted, which has both advantages and disadvantages. Raveners are sneakier as they are not well known.

How do you balance and use both units? This includes what you consider optimal unit size.


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This thread is not about my list, which is why this is in tactics not lists, but you can click the spoiler tag for how I am trying to use them in a tournament list.

So you will need genestealers as you will need troop choices, but are deciding whether more / better genestealers or raveners are the answer?

I would take the raveners to draw fire. They seem to be roughly equivalent in combat, so having a slightly different tool is good. That being said, packs of 20 genestealers can't be gunned down in time before they make it to their intended victim....

Well I am less worried about them getting gunned down before hand, between cover, catalyst, and target saturation they can live. The problem is that if they win and can't get into cover or fail to stay locked in that the opponent rips them up, which is why I have been only taking ten. Not only does it give you more options with multiple squads, but if they are high and dry they are not going to all get wiped out.

How big of squads do you use for raveners?

Really the big question is what does the rest of the list look like?

Genestealers are good, Ravs can be good, but it all depends on what else you are working with and how you are employing them.

Typically I run at 2000;

HQ Tervigon-Catalyst/Onslaught
HQ Tervigon-Catalyst/Onslaught

3 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthrope

10 Gargoyles

Trygon
Trygon


Fairly standard foot list. Gargoyles screen while things walk up. Catalyst almost always guarantees all three elites will get shots turn one.

I typically run toxin stealers in squads of 12 and ravs with rending claws in packs of 6. The reason I run Ravs in packs of 6 is it puts the unit pretty close in almost every way with the trygons I run. This causes target priority problems for the opponent (high str/large blast weapons are still a big problem for them though).

I think that with the rest of the list you are running, I'd look at running one group of 6 ravs and either 2 groups of 15 stealers or 3 groups of 10 stealers. The other thing I'd do is drop one zoey and bump the gargs up to 20. It'll give you much better coverage for the number of units, and they'll soak twice the amount of fire before folding.

I would definitely go with genestealers, with toxin sacs. Or if you want to go outside the box, loads of 5 man units with upgrade BL and adrenal glands (my friend has started using this tactic and it is quite impressive).

Raveners could be good, but what they needed was access to toxin sacs or adrenal glands, unfrotunately they don't and to make them suvivable to make them any good, I think takes away from the survivability of your good units.

lord_bobbington wrote:I would definitely go with genestealers, with toxin sacs. Or if you want to go outside the box, loads of 5 man units with upgrade BL and adrenal glands (my friend has started using this tactic and it is quite impressive).

Raveners could be good, but what they needed was access to toxin sacs or adrenal glands, unfrotunately they don't and to make them suvivable to make them any good, I think takes away from the survivability of your good units.

Ravaners ARE very good, the issue with them isn't not being able to take Adrenal Glands or Toxin sacs, they more than make up for that. It's the issue of the abundance of strength 8 weaponry that people take, that ID's them.

They can work really well, as long as you just take rending claws on them. They are among the quickest units in the codex, with a possible 24' threat range. With 5 Attacks on the charge, and rerolling 1's they can easily wipe out most squads that they come into contact with. Things like Powerfists can be a concern however. The only other issue is synapse, so you have to plan accordingly for that as well.

Hello!
If you can be bothered I have written a quick analysis on raveners here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412168.page

The main issues with raveners in my opinion is their vunerability to fists. Most things in the game seem to have one in some form or another and just a couple of successful swings leaves you 6wounds down (vs marines you are lost combat right there) and 8 attacks less.
They also dont have access to poison which makes genestealers much better for damage output (50% exactly vs toughness 4)

With regard to your list you are low on troops and I am not sure how you plan to compete! You have 3 synapse creatures. The zoanthropes which have to be within 18 of the enemy, and the 2 Tervigons. Are they going to push forward to support Trygons and contest points or are they going to sit back to provide synapse for point holding Termagants? Either way they will not be able to cover your whole army and you will notice that they can often clog up with no more than 10-12 gaunts spawned.
I would add another tervigon and make one of the HQ tervigons a troop. Now you will also have 20 termagants on the table so you can possibly ditch the gargoyles as you only wanted them for cover right? Then add a big unit of poisoned stealers (around 15) to benift from catalyst and a smaller unit of poisoned stealers 10 for killing. Infiltrate will make up for lack of speed in comparison to Raveners
I think this should be around 700 points that you where missing

you really need to use synergy to get use out of genies or raveners since either on their own are rubbish.

How I ran them is I would buy a group of 5 genies + broodlord, 3 raveners, and 12 hormagaunts. Then use Warriors for synapse.

Two of those then a large group of gargoyles for screening or venomthropes.

You give your opponent some tough choices in the shooting phase and it's harder in the assault phase.

Do you shoot at the synapse? The damage dealers? The beasts with the 12'' charge range? The easy to kill hormagaunts? They're fearless too so they are not running.

Assault phase it comes down to trying to win combat resolution by killing gaunts, or try to cut down damage by killing raveners or genestealers.

Of course, this is posting tactics and not math hammer so people will waste time and question my advice relentlessly. @_@

sn0zcumb3r wrote:With regard to your list you are low on troops and I am not sure how you plan to compete!

Tervigons spawn in the case that it is an objective mission, not to mention the genestealers.

sn0zcumb3r wrote:You have 3 synapse creatures. The zoanthropes which have to be within 18 of the enemy, and the 2 Tervigons. Are they going to push forward to support Trygons and contest points or are they going to sit back to provide synapse for point holding Termagants? Either way they will not be able to cover your whole army and you will notice that they can often clog up with no more than 10-12 gaunts spawned.

I have been running four at 2K normally. The other is a squad of three lash/bone warriors which have been removed due to ID issues. It has not been too bad, and I calculate that 150 points of stealers is more effective. guess doing 3 minimal warriors for 90points, maybe a few upgrades, could be useful for synapse, and would be low target priority but it seems that at that point the thirty points could be worth it for the power weapon ability. Too many choices is never a bad thing (reenforces in my mind that Nids are still compeditive).

sn0zcumb3r wrote:I would add another tervigon and make one of the HQ tervigons a troop. Now you will also have 20 termagants on the table so you can possibly ditch the gargoyles as you only wanted them for cover right? Then add a big unit of poisoned stealers (around 15) to benift from catalyst and a smaller unit of poisoned stealers 10 for killing. Infiltrate will make up for lack of speed in comparison to Raveners.

I have found, and this is obviously my local tournaments, that too many games don't have objectives and so the third tervigon is a waste of points. After upgrades and termagant tax you are looking at 240 points. The synapse is nice (only 100 points if used to replace warriors). That is a good way of looking at it, though I am worried about the effects of having more tervigons when they die. More tervigons mean more chances to kill gants. I actually an looking at upping the Gargoyles to 20 with TS/AG. In terms of Raveners they have the same speed and are far more killy and survivable (per unit, not model), plus the fact that they give more cover.

I always infiltrate unless they have servo skulls, not only does it allow for shenanigans (the first turn assaults catch people by surprise) but it messes up their alpha strike ability big time.

ivangterrace wrote:Assault phase it comes down to trying to win combat resolution by killing gaunts, or try to cut down damage by killing raveners or genestealers.

This brings up a unique point for Nid players...how to avoid the multi-assualt. Obviously bubble wrapping well, but there is a point when the extra bodies from termagants and gargoyles can get in the way. At my last tournamnet my one non-win (tie), came from getting rocked by a black templar multi-assault. I don't really think the question is framed well, as they don't have to pick. Why aim for the dangerous stuff when you can just kill it with no retreat wounds?

Edit-Added a detail.