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We know that a unit may disembark from a vehicle that has moved 12 inches or less.
We also know that pivoting does not equal movement for purposes of shooting or for being assaulted.

Where in the rules does it prevent a vehicle, let's take a Wave Serpent for instance, from moving 12 inches, positioning the rear hatch in one direction, disembarking the unit inside, and then pivoting so as to hide the weak rear armor?

The rules that say once a units movement is over you can not go back and re-move it.

Once you finish moving the 'Wave Serpent for instance' and you start moving the embarked guys inside, the 'Wave Serpent's' move is now over, since you moved another unit by disembarking them.

Disembarking counts as the infantry units movement. Once you move Unit B, you cannot go back and "tweak" Unit A's movement.

edit: my bad.

Once you have finished moving a model, you can't move it again, even just to rotate it in place. Once you move the unit inside, you must have finished moving the transport, and thus can't move it again.

rigeld2 wrote:Disembarking counts as the infantry units movement. Once you move Unit B, you cannot go back and "tweak" Unit A's movement.

DeathReaper wrote:The rules that say once a units movement is over you can not go back and re-move it.

Once you finish moving the 'Wave Serpent for instance' and you start moving the embarked guys inside, the 'Wave Serpent's' move is now over, since you moved another unit by disembarking them.

Okay, well for sake of juicing this for all it is worth, pivoting is not movement according to the rulebook, right?

While pivoting does not count "as having moved in the shooting phase," it is still a form of movement.

It's still something that you do as you move, though. You have no permission to pivot the vehicle at any other time.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Once you have finished moving a model, you can't move it again, even just to rotate it in place. Once you move the unit inside, you must have finished moving the transport, and thus can't move it again.

The question is why and how come you cannot pivot if it is true that pivoting is not considered movement?


Thanks for entertaining this thought pattern guys/gals but it is little things like this that have game altering effects.

Deuce11 wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Once you have finished moving a model, you can't move it again, even just to rotate it in place. Once you move the unit inside, you must have finished moving the transport, and thus can't move it again.

The question is why and how come you cannot pivot if it is true that pivoting is not considered movement?


Thanks for entertaining this thought pattern guys/gals but it is little things like this that have game altering effects.

Because you can only pivot during movement - but the action of pivoting itself is not movement and does not count against movement.

Just like you can't pivot in the shooting phase (unless you're a Walker that is shooting)

insaniak wrote:It's still something that you do as you move, though. You have no permission to pivot the vehicle at any other time.

100% this.

Once you start moving another unit, the disembark move, you can not go back and try to pivot any vehicles that moved.

Reinforced by the rules on P.11 "Once a unit has completed ALL of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one"

you can pivot as you move, and if you only pivot you count as stationary, but that is still the units movement for that turn.

insaniak wrote:It's still something that you do as you move, though. You have no permission to pivot the vehicle at any other time.

hmmm so the tank cannot pivot in the movement phase unless it is moving even though pivoting does not count as movement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

insaniak wrote:It's still something that you do as you move, though. You have no permission to pivot the vehicle at any other time.

100% this.

Once you start moving another unit, the disembark move, you can not go back and try to pivot any vehicles that moved.

Reinforced by the rules on P.11 "Once a unit has completed ALL of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one"

you can pivot as you move, and if you only pivot you count as stationary, but that is still the units movement for that turn.

ok. i buy that.

Deuce11 wrote:

insaniak wrote:It's still something that you do as you move, though. You have no permission to pivot the vehicle at any other time.

hmmm so the tank cannot pivot in the movement phase unless it is moving even though pivoting does not count as movement?

Correct - if you spin the vehicle around, he's moved (as far as the movement phase - you can't go back and move him) but he has not moved with respect to to-hit in CC, guns to be fired, etc.

Deuce11 wrote:hmmm so the tank cannot pivot in the movement phase unless it is moving even though pivoting does not count as movement?

It pivots as part of its movement, yes. You can choose to pivot on the spot without actually moving (because the rules say so) in which case you will count as not having moved in later phases... but this is done as part of the vehicle's movement for the turn.

While all of the above reasons are correct and valid, this same question came up enough in 3rd and 4th edition (which worked the exact same way), that GW went ahead and explicitly stated that pivoting a vehicle counts as movement for purposes related to disembarking, on page 67, where it talks about disembarking units from transports. Funny enough.

This came up recently in a tournament: my Eldar opponent tried to spin a Wave Serpent around to disembark some Dire Avengers, move them, and then fly the Wave Serpent away (and then assault with the DAs later that turn). Got kind of annoyed when I pointed out that this was illegal, he called over the TO who ruled in my favour...

Anyway, relevant rules quotes:

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model.... Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary..." (Rulebook, p57)

I can see what the OP is saying, if you only read the second sentence in a vacuum, however the context here really matters. That is, you are only given permission to pivot during the vehicle's movement, but if you only pivot, then you count as moving.

If you were to take the OP's argument to its fullest extreme, then what would stop a player from pivoting a vehicle in his shooting phase? In his opponent's shooting phase? You get the idea; it has to be taken in the context of the pivot
being part of the vehicle's movement, and it simply doesn't count as having moved if that's all it did for its movement.

It's not directly related to this thread, but for completeness: p67 says that pivoting does count as moving for purposes of disembarking units from a transport, though.

Pivoting absolutely is movement. There is a special rule allowing pivoting in place to count as stationary for shooting, but models inside, as noted above, still count as being in a vehicle that moved.

As I dont know off the top of my head without my rulebook, I cant confirm, BUT... pivoting in terrain also causes a dangerous terrain check, right? Because the vehicle moved in terrain.

DevianID wrote:Pivoting absolutely is movement.

40K 5th Edition Rulebook wrote:... Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary...

As I dont know off the top of my head without my rulebook, I cant confirm, BUT... pivoting in terrain also causes a dangerous terrain check, right? Because the vehicle moved in terrain.

No, because the vehicle doesn't count as moving.

insaniak, if you ONLY pivot in the movement phase, doesnt it say you count as being stationary in the shooting phase? Or does it say the vehicle expressly does not count as moving in the movement phase. Again, no rulebook, but I thought I had it remembered, though its been a while I admit.

insaniak wrote:

DevianID wrote:As I dont know off the top of my head without my rulebook, I cant confirm, BUT... pivoting in terrain also causes a dangerous terrain check, right? Because the vehicle moved in terrain.

No, because the vehicle doesn't count as moving.

Not necessarily; you don't have to move through dangerous terrain in order to require a dangerous terrain test. You only have to "enter, leave or move through dangerous terrain" (p14; cf. 57), so if you pivot in a way that makes the vehicle enter terrain then you still have to take the test.

Cheexsta wrote:Not necessarily; you don't have to move through dangerous terrain in order to require a dangerous terrain test. You only have to "enter, leave or move through dangerous terrain" (p14; cf. 57), so if you pivot in a way that makes the vehicle enter terrain then you still have to take the test.

You need the entire quote Cheexsta. "Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move." {emphasis mine}

Where the rules break down a bit is that vehicles that only pivot count as stationary because pivoting does not count as movement.

However, vehicles that are immobilized may not pivot, because immobilized vehicles "...may not move for the rest of the game." and "...may not turn in place...".

So does pivoting constitute movement? Or does it just not "count as moving"?

This is further confused by the first line in the models disembarking rule, "If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot)..." until you realize that this is written to say that again pivoting is not considered moving, that's why the rule has to include pivoting on the spot. This says that even though pivoting alone does not count as moving, it still carries the same restriction for disembarking passengers as a vehicle that did move.

The same for immobilized. If the rule simply stated that the vehicle may not move, it could be argued that the vehicle could pivot since pivoting does not count as movement. That's why the rule had to include that the vehicle may not turn in place or pivot.

The rule for dangerous terrain tests do not say to include pivoting on the spot. So pivoting alone does not count as moving for dangerous terrain tests.

One further note, if you were to assault a vehicle that only pivoted in its Movement phase, the vehicle would be hit automaitcally, the same as if it remained stationary, because the actual distance covered would be zero inches.

All that notwithstanding, even though it may "count as" stationary for certain rules, what matters is that the pivot takes place during the vehicle's movement phase and once you are done with the vehicles "move" and begin moving the next unit, you may not go back to the vehicle.

This is one of the more annoying things to me in the 40k rules, because they've expressed it the same way in the last three editions, and it's always been clumsy, inefficient, and misleading.

Functionally, within the rules, Pivoting is movement, except for only two specific purposes: How many weapons the vehicle can shoot, and how easily it's hit in close combat if assaulted.

But instead of writing it that way, GW has stupidly written that pivoting does not count as moving, and then written out all the exceptions/circumstances in which it DOES count, which are actually more numerous than the two in which it doesn't.

DevianID wrote:insaniak, if you ONLY pivot in the movement phase, doesnt it say you count as being stationary in the shooting phase? Or does it say the vehicle expressly does not count as moving in the movement phase. Again, no rulebook, but I thought I had it remembered, though its been a while I admit.

I just quoted what it says...

Sorry Insaniak, the quote you posted ended in '...' leading me to think there was more. My question in the post was if there was a further qualifier after 'stationary' to the effect of 'in the shooting phase.' My initial post asking this was not as clear as it should have been.

DevianID wrote:Sorry Insaniak, the quote you posted ended in '...' leading me to think there was more.

The elipses was there to showI wasn't quoting the entire passage, just the relevant part

time wizard wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:Not necessarily; you don't have to move through dangerous terrain in order to require a dangerous terrain test. You only have to "enter, leave or move through dangerous terrain" (p14; cf. 57), so if you pivot in a way that makes the vehicle enter terrain then you still have to take the test.

You need the entire quote Cheexsta. "Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move." {emphasis mine}

And you need to read the rules quotes I've already provided in previous posts.

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move..." (Rulebook, p57)

The pivot "movement" is done during the vehicle's move, as this is the only time the vehicle is given permission to pivot. The action of pivoting doesn't count as movement by itself, but as it is done during the vehicle's move, then it can trigger a dangerous terrain check if it makes the vehicle enter or leave terrain.

Didn't realize this post was still open. BRB Pg 67 second paragraph clearly states the rules for the OP's question.