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Both happen at the beginning of the turn.

My knee jerk reaction is no, but I could not find a thread on it. This of course would be used with Terminators summoning demons for a variant on the demon bomb.

Depends on how you are asking. If you are asking if you can physically do both on the same turn then the answer is 'yes'.

If you are asking if the deepstriking unit is the unit whose icon you are wanting to use on the same turn, then 'no'.

In order to summon the Icon needs to be on the table at the beginning of the turn. If the Icon is deepstriking in that same turn then it would not be available for summoning.

Right, but you are deepstriking at "the beginning of the turn" so the icon would be on the table at "the beginning of the turn". Depending on which you rolled for first the icon would be present at the "beginning of the turn" to be able to use.

 

Beginning of the turn:

Deepstrike Termies

Summon demon: check for icon present, yes, then summon

End beginning of turn.

 

Since the "beginning of the turn" has no defined time or order it is unclear if the icon being placed first counts as being present at the beginning of the turn. Obviously defaulting to the lesser interp means no summoning to deepstruck (deepstriked?) units, and no possessing of AC's by greater demons on the same turn, I just wanted a clearer reason why not.

snoogums - your kneejerk reaction was correct.

But you are trying to incorporate that the "Beginning of the turn" is a turn in itself, when it's not.

The beginning of the turn is just that, the beginning. All actions that take place at the beginning of the turn would be taking place simultaneously.

Beginning of turn are there any icons on the table-NO

THEN you'd roll for deepstrikers and summoning.

Posted by snoogums on 03/03/2006 10:32 AM
Depending on which you rolled for first the icon would be present at the "beginning of the turn" to be able to use.

And if you rolled for one before the other then one wouldn't be happening at the 'beginning of the turn', now would it? No. No matter which you do first, the events occur simultaneously.

Posted By Ghaz on 03/03/2006 9:52 AM

Posted by snoogums on 03/03/2006 10:32 AM
Depending on which you rolled for first the icon would be present at the "beginning of the turn" to be able to use.

And if you rolled for one before the other then one wouldn't be happening at the 'beginning of the turn', now would it? No. No matter which you do first, the events occur simultaneously.

When you move Unit A, it can hinder unit B moved afterwords on the same turn, but all movement is happening silumtaneously. When you charge units all charges happen simultaneously but Unit A can block Unit B's charge if it is moved first. All shooting happens simultaneously, but you do templates one after the other, and the effects of the first affect the later templates. All shooting happens at the same time but if you shoot Unit C with Unit A first, then Unit B has less targets to shoot at even though it also happens simultaneously. In deepstriking and summoning you Roll for the first unit, then place and scatter, then move to the next. There isn't a 'phase' for the beginning of the turn, but how you handle simultaneous events tends to be take care of A then B then C.

When I roll for the demons after the Terminators, I'm rolling at the "beginning of the turn" and the icon is present. If it said the icon must be preset before the beginning of the turn it would be more clear.

No.

When you move Unit A, it can hinder unit B moved afterwords on the same turn, but all movement is happening silumtaneously.

But that is the Movement PHASE.

When you charge units all charges happen simultaneously but Unit A can block Unit B's charge if it is moved first.

But that is the Assault PHASE.

All shooting happens simultaneously, but you do templates one after the other, and the effects of the first affect the later templates. All shooting happens at the same time but if you shoot Unit C with Unit A first, then Unit B has less targets to shoot at even though it also happens simultaneously.

But that is the Shooting PHASE.

There isn't a 'phase' for the beginning of the turn, but how you handle simultaneous events tends to be take care of A then B then C.

THERE YOU GO! There's the difference. There is NO phase for the beginning of the turn. In this spot the rolling and placing of model in the A then B then C fashion is merely for sake of ease and NOT the same as doing so in the other "phases" therefore not bound by those rules.

The terminators MUST be on the table with the Icon at the beginning of the turn. They are NOT there if they are deepstriking on that same turn. They are not "arriving" before the daemons therefore are not able to use their icon for summoning purposes.

What's the hang up on phases? All I'm saying is that other rules that involve simultaneous events do happen in order. I'm saying that both summoning and deepstriking take place at the beginning of the turn, and the first one you do effects the following.

 

1- Both deepstrike and summoning occur at the beginning of the turn. -BGB

2- When rolling for deepstrike or summoning you roll and resolve one unit at a time - BGB/Chaos codex

3-Demon summoning and teleport homers require the item to be present at the beginning of the turn BGB/Chaos codex

4-Other rules that regulate actions that take place at the same time say to take them in player designated order, and then procede to the next unit, taking into account the previously actioned unit's results (shooting, movement and charging rules)

Conclusion: When rolling for deepstrike and summoning, the models on the table at the time of the summoning or deepstriking take into account the models presently on the board at the time of their deepstriking/summoning. If a unit with an icon is present, even from previous rolls this round, when the unit makes it's reserve rolls at the "beginning of the turn" it can use that icon as it is present at that time.

Again I am agreeing this is rules lawyering crapola, but I want a better refutation than it isn't a phase, because being a phase or not, it is the beginning of the turn, which is not noted to be treated differently.

To the people that reply, if you are rolling for deepstrike and the second unit deepstruck lands on the first unit do you remove both because they happened simultaneously? Would you mark that spot incase a third unit landed in the same area? Do you make a roll for greater demon possession when the unit deepstrikes since that occurs at the beginning of the turn also or wait until the second round? I'm wondering how other similar simultaneous beginning of the round events get handled.

 

The phases work the way the rules for said phases work.

There is NO rule for a "beginning turn" phase therefore the rule of "A then B then C" does not apply to actions at the beginning of the turn.

Premise 4 is completely false. The rules do not stipulate (except in a few circumstances) that actions within a phase occur simultaneously. And even if they did, that is in no way support for yoru argument.


No matter how you twist the "simultaneous" aspect of this, you cannot get around the fact that at the start of the turn the icon is not on the table, and therefore it cannot be summoned off of.

All of your other questions are valid, and much of what happens at "the start of the turn" is left up to the players to figure out. But all that is irrelevant because at the start of the turn the Icon is off the table.

It is physically impossible for something to be on the table and off the table at the same exact time.

I'm not buying the "phase" argument against. Personally I'd say there's no good rule to follow that says you can't, but at the time time there isn't either than says you can.

In erring on the side of "lesser advantage" I would say no, and add this to the list of desired FAQs.

Codex Chaos Space Marines, pg. 12:

"Starting with the second game turn roll a D6 for each Daemonic unit at the start of the Chaos turn before placing any other newly-arrived models.  If you roll equal or greater than the number shown, the unit becomes available. . . When a Daemon unit becomes available plase the large Ordnance blast marker. . ."
(emphasis mine)

Seems pretty obvious to me.  Furthermore, not only can you not summon them off of a deep striking icon, you have to place them before you resolve deep striking (not that this is a particularly big issue, but it's still the way summoning works).

Posted By Lowinor on 03/03/2006 3:34 PM
Codex Chaos Space Marines, pg. 12:

"Starting with the second game turn roll a D6 for each Daemonic unit at the start of the Chaos turn before placing any other newly-arrived models.  If you roll equal or greater than the number shown, the unit becomes available. . . When a Daemon unit becomes available plase the large Ordnance blast marker. . ."
(emphasis mine)

Seems pretty obvious to me.  Furthermore, not only can you not summon them off of a deep striking icon, you have to place them before you resolve deep striking (not that this is a particularly big issue, but it's still the way summoning works).

This is really what I was looking for, thanks.

Well thats not what my codex says, but then again my codex has T5 obliterators in it. (1st printing for the truely slow).

Anyway, thanks for the quote Lowinor, solves all problems nicely.

I do see the point that snooggums is trying to make.

If there were two deepstriking units, everyone I've seen rolls for them one at a time.  There is no 'simultaneous' deepstriking.  If all deepstriking were simultaneous, none of these drop pod armies would work right because you'd have to declare points for each pod before rolling for scatter and it would be disastrous if two pods landed at the same point at the same time.  The same thing happens if you have two or more units that fail their morale checks at the end of the shooting phase.  You don't have them all fallback simultaneously because they may run into each other and that breaks another rule that you can't move through friendly models. Because there are situations in the game where simultaneous events have to happen at an order chosen by the owning player, I don't see why this couldn't be one of them.

- Oaka

Edit:  I just saw that this situation was specifically addressed in the rules.  That's good.

@ Oaka: Despite the fact that the issue might have been addressed in the reprint of the Codex: Chaos, I for one see little problem in the given situation.
Say the question was: 'If simultaneous events occur during a game, is any player (in this case the owning chaos player) authorized to choose any order that suits him/her?' Well, might be (if it was me and without bringing that thought any further, let's just agree to that it's okay), but the question in itself is sort of off-topic for the given situation.

Imagine a stack called 'Ongoing events (yet to be resolved)' and a second one 'already handled events'.
Following Yacface's argument, we have sort of three events, in random order:
'deepstriking terminators'
'summoning daemons'
'beginning of turn'
The latter is labeled as an event since it might not be some sort of timeframe like an ongoing phase. It would be snooggums part to give proof that it is if he was up to use it in this way instead, so for the time being it can only be handled as a certain timestamp (event).

Right after an event like 'end of enemies phase' went to the 'already handled events' (will be further known as AHE, for god's sake *g*) stack, there is 'beginning of turn' going to the 'ongoing events' (OE), nothing more. When resolving 'beginning of turn' it goes to AHE and triggers 'deepstriking terminators' as well as 'summoning daemons' simultaneously (had to use that word again, so no one can claim to be unhappy). It is up to you as a player to arrange 'deepstriking terminators' and 'summoning daemons', including how to put them on the OE stack and thus in which order to later resolve them.
The thing is that 'beginning of turn' already is on the AHE at the time the other events go to the OE stack and 'summoning daemons' checks a certain condition, specificaly at the time the 'beginning of turn' event occured. Might as well be visualized as a pointer from the 'summoning daemons' event on the OE to the 'beginning of turn' @ AHE stack.
So it's of no relevance in which way you arrange 'summoning daemons' and 'deepstriking terminators', due to fact that the condition 'Icon present' is checked at 'beginning of turn' or to speak, on the AHE.
One more try to make myself clear: The pointer goes exactly to 'beginning of turn', no matter if 'deepstriking terminators' will go to the AHE next, it won't change source and destination of said pointer that determines at which state to check the condition!!

P.S.: I have a certain picture in my mind by now, if there is any desire I might as well give it a ms paintjob. On the other hand, it could scare people...
P.P.S.: @ snooggums: I have thought about this sort of daemon bomb for quite some time, I'd still try it just to not be the stereotype. Anyways, my idea would be the use of a certain psychic power to protect you the one valuable turn you cannot summon (with the benefit of bringing your daemons to the table at turn 3, giving them a better chance to appear in numbers). Still quite risky (hoods) and with a lack of mobility, but certainly worth a try...

I figure the rules for the icon used in summoning would work just like the teleport homer. You can't roll use a teleport homer that was on the board at the start of the turn. Same goes for the icon. Can't use an icon that was on the board at the start of the turn.