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The ruins/template rules state that one level can be gained by infantry for flamer-template use. That is, no ground to 3rd floor flaming.

Okay.

Let's put a skimming transport, like a venom or raider, on the second floor of one of GW's ruins. A haemonculous looks to liquify something on the ground, while still inside the transport. Yeah, he could get out and shoot, but that's not the point.

Shooting with the skimmer on its stand, can the template hit infantry on the ground?

Question isn't relevant because a skimmer can't land on the upper floors of ruins.

theironjef wrote:Question isn't relevant because a skimmer can't land on the upper floors of ruins.

Citation?

BGB, page 83

"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper level of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of a ruin."

Heh. That's the one that keeps scarabs & TWC on the ground (beasts & cavalry). I guess it reads the same for vehicles.

There's a lot of people who have been playing it the wrong way.

Thanks, question answered.

Yeah, virtually everyone plays it the wrong way, because it's a a dumb rule that doesn't make any sense (they can land on impassable places but not ruins?), and is somewhat contradicted on BGB page 71. Sadly (I speak as a dark eldar player), it is a rule.

The contradictory sentence in question:

"Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and all tests for dangerous terrain."

The reason it's only somewhat contradictory is the difference between "over" and "onto." Apparently a skimmer can fly up a ladder and through a second-story window but it can't hover while doing so.

theironjef - erm, no, skimmers can land on the upper floors just fine. Their own movement rules allow this, and is not overridden by the skimmer rules.

Yes, you can flame down one level, so the vehicle on the first floor can flame down tot he ground floor

nosferatu - erm, no, skimmers cannot land or move on the upper floors of ruins.
The rules for ruins list the only units that are permitted to move there.
Skimmers can move into difficult terrain and can end their move in impassable terrain if they can be placed there, but the upper floors of ruins are not impassable terrain unless the players agree on it.
Artillery and tanks can, by rule, move into and through difficult terrain, but they can't move on the upper floors of ruins either.
Skimmers, like any other unit not allowed to move on the upper floors of ruins, may only move on the ground floor of the ruin.

nosferatu1001 wrote:theironjef - erm, no, skimmers can land on the upper floors just fine. Their own movement rules allow this, and is not overridden by the skimmer rules.

Yes, you can flame down one level, so the vehicle on the first floor can flame down tot he ground floor

Heh, you aren't really arguing with me here, you're arguing with GW. I didn't post an opinion, I posted a quote from the BGB.

time wizard wrote:nosferatu - erm, no, skimmers cannot land or move on the upper floors of ruins.
The rules for ruins list the only units that are permitted to move there.
Skimmers can move into difficult terrain and can end their move in impassable terrain if they can be placed there, but the upper floors of ruins are not impassable terrain unless the players agree on it.
Artillery and tanks can, by rule, move into and through difficult terrain, but they can't move on the upper floors of ruins either.
Skimmers, like any other unit not allowed to move on the upper floors of ruins, may only move on the ground floor of the ruin.

If they can't move up there that would be considered Impassible terrain to them. Skimmers may land on impassible terrain with a Dangerous terrain test. I have NEVER seen any player play that that can not land on ruins, let alone any TO rule that they can't.

BlueDagger wrote:If they can't move up there that would be considered Impassible terrain to them.

I do not believe this is strictly true.

But perhaps that is what people are thinking when the do it, because I do see it somewhat regularly.

It fits the definition of Impassable terrain perfectly, so they can move up there with a Dangerous Terrain test

nosferatu1001 wrote:It fits the definition of Impassable terrain perfectly, so they can move up there with a Dangerous Terrain test

Really? Main rules page 13, "Impassable terrain includes..." and there is a list. The list does not say ruins, upper floors of ruins or terrain that certain units cannot enter.

Main rules page 82, Ruins: The Basics, "All ruins are area terrain (providing a 4+ cover save) and difficult terrain." The rule even goes on to say that players may agree to treat some as dangerous terrain.

Now it is true that we could agree before a game that upper levels of ruins are impassable, but just because the rule on ruins says that only certain units can move on the upper levels, and the fact that skimmers aren't listed or permitted to move there, does not by definition make the upper levels impassable terrain.

The lists are part of "Guidelines on categorising terrain", not "The definitive categorisation of all terrain". It is not against the rules to make a lava flow simply difficult or dangerous terrain instead of impassable, so the lists are by no means the final say on terrain.

Above the lists, however, is a definition of Impassable Terrain, which is "Impassable terrain cannot be moved across or into."; if my skimmer cannot move into terrain, then what else is that terrain but impassable?

And the last sentence above the terrain types says, "For now, we're going to discuss terrain only in terms of how infanrty move through it."

So the definition of impassable terrain means only that terrain that infantry cannot move through is impassable.

And infantry can move on the upper floors of ruins.

So the upper floors of ruins, by definition, are not impassable terrain.

And only certain units can be moved on the upper floors of a ruin. And a skimmer is not one of those types.

That still doesn't answer the question of what type terrain is if my skimmer cannot move onto it.

I can't go onto higher levels of ruins, therefore that ruin is?

a) Open
b) Difficult
c) Dangerous
d) Impassable

The first three all allow movement within them, so that leaves the level I want to go on as being Impassable terrain, no? Or is there a mysterious other terrain type?

Avatar 720 wrote:That still doesn't answer the question of what type terrain is if my skimmer cannot move onto it.

I can't go onto higher levels of ruins, therefore that ruin is?

a) Open
b) Difficult
c) Dangerous
d) Impassable

The first three all allow movement within them, so that leaves the level I want to go on as being Impassable terrain, no? Or is there a mysterious other terrain type?

Skimmers are permitted to move onto impassable terrain. Page 71.

Ruins are area terrain and are difficult terrain. Page 82.

But ruins have a rule specifying which units may move onto upper levels of a ruin. Skimmers are not included in that list, therefore they may not move there. It does not change the definition of that terrain.

By your logic, you might as well say that a skimmer can end it's move on top of a rhino.

Enemy models are classified as impassable terrain, and further models cannot move onto other models, so according to unit this further makes them impassable terrain.

And you're saying that skimmers can end their move on top of impassable terrain as long as they can be placed there. So they can be placed on top of rhinos. Correct? Of course not.

Just because a certain model type is prohibited from entering a certain terrain type does not classify the terrain as impassable.

No, by my logic a skimmer still cannot move onto a Rhino since that breaks the rule that Skimmers cannot end their move on top of friendly or enemy models: "Skimmers can move over friendly or enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

If a model cannot move into terrain, then I ask again what type could it possibly be other than impassable? All terrain has a type, even flat, basic boards are classed as open terrain. If that suddenly didn't hold any terrain type, then how would you be able to use it? Terrain must have a type in order to be used, and since Open, Difficult and Dangerous terrain can all be moved through, only Impassable terrain is left.

What would you do with a piece of terrain that has no type? To a skimmer, a Ruin cannot be Open, Difficult or Dangerous, thus it must be Impassable, else you have typeless terrain.

Your last is explicity denied by the skimmer rules (may not end its move over another model) otehrwise you COULD land on top of them.

That terrain is impassable to the skimmer, because the skimmer cannot move there. that fits the defiintion of impassable to me

Brothererekose wrote:The ruins/template rules state that one level can be gained by infantry for flamer-template use. That is, no ground to 3rd floor flaming.

Okay.

Let's put a skimming transport, like a venom or raider, on the second floor of one of GW's ruins. A haemonculous looks to liquify something on the ground, while still inside the transport. Yeah, he could get out and shoot, but that's not the point.

Shooting with the skimmer on its stand, can the template hit infantry on the ground?

Going back to the OP,

If your skimmer is on the ground floor, not on the second, as is the current discussion down the line, then the skimmer can hit any level of the ruins that it wishes, as per the template rules.

And before I get told to quote a page in the BRB, check template rules on page 85.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your last is explicity denied by the skimmer rules (may not end its move over another model) otehrwise you COULD land on top of them.

That terrain is impassable to the skimmer, because the skimmer cannot move there. that fits the defiintion of impassable to me

The rule on page 83 is specific and explicit. "...only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper level of a ruin..."

Since this is a permissive ruleset, show me the rule that specifically says skimmers may move on the upper levels of ruins.

I think that we have the same problem here as people have with FNP. In FNP we are told that you can not take the test if the weapon does not allow an armour save (paraphrased). Everyone agrees that that particular phrase means that if no one could save then you can't take the test not if the model could not make an armour save.
I see the same situation here. I think that the "impassable terrain" mentioned in the skimmer rule requires that no one can enter it (other than from the rule itself) rather than a particular model not being able to enter the terrain.

The terrain is impassable to the skimmer, so it may land on it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The terrain is impassable to the skimmer, so it may land on it.

Please show me where you can classify terrain as impassable for a particular unit type.

Terrain types are:
clear
difficult
difficult & dangerous
impassable

Please direct me to the rule that permits any terrain to be classified as both diffficult and impassable.

Permissive ruleset, remember?

Where is it classified as both difficult and impassable to a skimmer?

You can certainly have a piece of terrain that is both difficult and dangerous. Like a lava field with a lava pool within it.

Avatar 720 wrote:Where is it classified as both difficult and impassable to a skimmer?

Good question. Better one is where in the rules does it allow a piece of terrain to be classified as both difficult and impassable?
Check again the rules for categorising terrain on page 13. There it says it is simple "...to classify terrain within these four categories."
Which four? Clear, difficult, impassable and buildings.
Difficult terrain can be classified as both difficult and dangerous.
I don't see anything that can be classified as both difficult and impassable.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You can certainly have a piece of terrain that is both difficult and dangerous. Like a lava field with a lava pool within it.

Yes, you can have terrain that is both difficult and dangerous. No argument there.

I agree with Time Wizard.

"Impassible terrain" is a classified type of terrain, which despite the name is actually passable (albeit dangerous) to certain units, including Skimmers.

Ruins are not Impassible Terrain. Rules have their own specific list of what units can move about the upper floors, which Skimmers aren't on.

Skimmers have no rule saying they can enter/land on the upper floors of a ruin. They can, of course, enter and land on the ground floor like other vehicles.

theironjef wrote:Yeah, virtually everyone plays it the wrong way, because it's a a dumb rule that doesn't make any sense (they can land on impassable places but not ruins?), and is somewhat contradicted on BGB page 71. Sadly (I speak as a dark eldar player), it is a rule.

The contradictory sentence in question:

"Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and all tests for dangerous terrain."

The reason it's only somewhat contradictory is the difference between "over" and "onto." Apparently a skimmer can fly up a ladder and through a second-story window but it can't hover while doing so.

So then I can park my Necron Monoliths on the second floor?

Not sure i get the joke. Monoliths are skimmers, right? So no.

Anyway, the thing I find galling about this rule is that there's some evidence floating around that GW isn't aware that it's a rule. Check out the landspeeder on the Cities of Death gameboard in the BGB, page 274. Not only is it precariously parked atop a thin ruin outcropping, there's a line pointing to it that extolls the virtues of Ruin terrain for LOS and cover generation!

Okay, so now you're thinking, yeah yeah, but that's Cities of Death, it's got a different ruleset. Sure, let's go take a look at that. Cities of Death page 9: "Skimmers may not enter or occupy city ruins, but they may hover overhead as normal. (emphasis mine).

So... it's normal for skimmers to hover above ruins, illegally? Thanks GW!

There's also a lot of battle shots in the book featuring skimmers that might be in violation of the rule, dependent on the agreement of the players. Lots of eldar tanks on the top levels of fortresses or on bridge things connecting battlements, that are either buildings or ruins. Granted, that distinction being so fluid and impossible to determine via simply looking at a picture is one more reason it's dumb that the ruling exists, if you can't tell if a thing is impassable or just not passable, why have different rules for the two?