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Having gotten back into the game with DE, I'm now thinking about starting a BA army. See topic title. I hope you're willing to help!

First, about Razorbacks. I wanted to field mine with TL ACs for aesthetic value, it looks way cooler than the lasplas variety IMHO. I know I get TL ACs 'for free' on Baals. But sec, are TL ACs much worse than the lasplas combo?

Second, Stormravens... most mechspam lists I've seen posted here use Preds or Vindis, with the occasional LR splashed in, but little signs of Stormravens. To me, on paper at least, it looks pretty spiffy. Though it obv ain't as tough as a LR, I know from bitter experience that AV12 ain't no picknick to overcome, and its (Fast) alpha strike capability would be a natural fit for BA despite the price tag. Am I missing something here?

Lastly (for now); 10 Tacticals in a Rhino, probably backed by a Priest. Workable or bust?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on these issues for me!

TL AC are just as good, but do different jobs. TL Las is almost exclusively for anti-tank, whereas TL AC work nicely against infantry or light armour thanks to the rending. I think you would benefit from having a good mix. If you are taking Baals, then you may want to use the TL Las on the Razorbacks.

Tac squads in a Rhino are always a viable option, but given the CC strength of BA, I personally think you would fare better to keep your troops CC-oriented. Assault marines in a Rhino with a Priest are a pain to move off of objectives.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the lack of Stormravens is due to its cost compared to the alternatives.

I enjoy using the Stormravens I have for my GK lists. Remember PotMS allows you to always fire one weapon so pick an anti-infantry and an anti-tank for a good mix.

With BA you probably need to decide what type of army you want first and then go all in. The dex is costed well enough that you can't be a master at everything. However, I do run a list that runs counter to what I just said and won a 18 person 1 day tourney with it last week (if it would have been a 5 game tourney I probably wouldn't have done as well).

If you want a shooty list then you will need: Auto/Las Predators, Baals or speeders, and lots of razorbacks. Due to rending, TL assault cannons are just as good if not better than lascannons until you get to AV13. The big difference would be the range. Las/Plas is nice because you can take a weapon destroyed result and still be able to fire something as well as hurting termies when they get withing 24". If you are going to field several razorbacks you can mix and match the loads to make your list more flexible. Due to it's point cost I don't think a stormraven has much of a place in this type of list.

If you want an assault list you can go several directions: DoA with drop pods dreads, Terminators, Sanguinor/Mephiston, Death Co., priests for FNP etc. In these lists a stormraven fits well since it can quickly get your assault units to where they need to be.

As mentioned before, you can do a mixed list like I do but it isn't as effective. Here is what I run to give you an idea:
Assault Element: Stormraven, CC Terminators w/ Reclusiarch, Furioso Dread
Shooting and scoring Elements: 3 Razorbacks, 2 Autocannon Dreads, 2 Speeders with missiles, 1 Baal

In my last tournament, my first opponent was Tau and I had a hard time with the range of the railguns but was able to take out his troop choices and hold objectives. My second opponent was GK with Paladins and Dread Knights. I was able to put down the Dread Knights early with high AP shooting and then overwhelm the paladins. The stormraven was a champ in this one since I was able to get my assault element in a place they could assault one Paladin squad at a time. The last game was against Tyranids and it was kill points. I used my mobility to stay out of assault while killing his big bugs, and then ran my stormraven to the back of his lines where he was hiding his easy kill points. I think he killed 3 units and I had a ton.

All this to say, do what you like. There are very few "bad" units in the BA dex. You just need to know what you want to do and pick the units that will be the most effective to get that job done.

TLAC is better than the TLLascannon for av13 is:

TLLascannon has 8/9*2/3 pens and then 8/9*1/6 glances, so 8/9*1/2 is .44 of doing anything.
TLAssault cannon 8/9*1/6 so 4/27 of penning, 23/27 of not penning. 1-(23/27)^4 is .47 of penning.

Anyway to answer the question.:
Las/plas is more flexible if you know you are always going to try to get within 24'' then TLAC would be better.

A single stormraven is a huge av12 target. Maybe if you have two it could work?
Usually due the points and the occupants if you take out the ravens most lists fall apart. Foot slogging a furisio dread and assault termies whilst also losing a 200 pt model is not fun.

Actually, people will shoot this idea down, tactical squads in a rhino is better than a 10 man assault squad in a rhino, it is cheaper and can better operate on foot.
5 man assault squads in rhinos are not killy enough.
However tactical squads in rhinos are too expensive so better not to take them at all. Though maybe holding 10 death company could be fun.

So tactical marines a pretty much bust for BA. I would recommend them above assault squads in rhinos and also drop pods, but no do not take them. Dev. squads could be useful however.

The downside to TLAC razorbacks is their limited range of 24". BA razorbacks are fast and can move 12" while still shooting a single gun. The threat range of a BA TLAC razorback is 36", which makes the TLAC seem like a no the way to go in a BA list. Arguments for las/plas or TLLAS hold more ground when talking about SW, Vanilla, or GK razorbacks.

Most people have already suggested what to do about the TL AC so I'm not gonna cover that since I pretty much agree. I personally feel TL PL with Lascannon is superior simply because you get 2 Weapon destroyed results and you can keep your Razorbacks at a relatively safer distance. Also TL AC are already covered by Baal Predators so why take them again? Your army already has 3 of them with the Baal Predators. It shouldn't need more.

Stormravens are ok. The reason GK can use them so effectively is that they get them with a 3+ cover save because of their librarian's power. For BA its a good tool to transport in a Furioso Dreadnought or a squad of Termies. Its really quite fun, but I don't think its all that competitive.

Tacs in a rhino is bad simply because the Las/Plas Assault Marine combo works better. Tacs don't get the extra attack that Assault Marines do either.

Thank you all for your insights. A couple of things have become clearer, though of course it's raised new questions. I'm very much a mech-assault kind of guy so not likely to be hanging back with the Razorbacks. From what I've gathered here, it seems pintle storm bolters might be a sound investment as they cover the TLACs main weakness (to Weapon Destroyed). That said I'd assemble at least one lasplas turret to see how it works out.

The Stormraven seemed like a good delivery system to me, but the vibe I get here is 'meh'. I really like the Assault Vehicle thing though. What's more, only Land Raiders have this other than the Stormraven, and those are even more expensive! Yet, are these better rides than the jet? Or is DoA the only viable option for assaulty BA?

On Tacs: I agree they're a bit overpriced compared to what's available. My initial thoughts on them were that they might perform better in a mostly assault-oriented list... but it seems I can't do that for cheaps. Razorbacks and Rhinos not being Assault Vehicles really hurts. Guess I'm spoiled by my Raiders...

Storm Bolters aren't worth it because your opponent will always go for the TL Assault Cannon on the Razorback so its essentially a metal box since it can't hunt tanks at all. With Las/Plas regardless of which weapon your opponent takes they are screwed. Plasma Guns can still do some damage to a vehicle and it can destroy infantry out right. If they take the Plasma guns you still have a potent Anti Tank weapon left. Now if you lose a TL AC and are left with a storm bolter what do you do then? You can't really effectively kill anything. =(

I know this is going to sound strange, but DoA is a close range shooty army since when you deep strike you want to pop vehicles immediately with your meltaguns. After that you usually take a charge from something which sucks. If you play it right you won't get charged or if you just start on the board you usually have a better advantage since you can then move 12 shoot then assault 6. I would try a Jump Pack BA army. I've played DoA for a year now and I can't stand how ineffective it is in some situations especially Vanguard Veterans.

If you want you can put a 10 man assault squad in a Land Raider and use the removal of the jump packs to subtract the cost of the LR as a Transport. Just food for thought. I have no clue how well that works.

How about deepstriking the Land Raider? I built a DoA list. So, I have no experience with it. However, I have really been considering trying it out. It would allow the Reserving of the Land Raider. Thus keeping the opponents anti-mech weapons from having a field day on your only vehicle early in the game. When the land raider shows up, he can start in the thick of it with your deep striking assault marines.

Those are just my thoughts. I have not tried this on the table top yet.

ChaplainSluder wrote:How about deepstriking the Land Raider? I built a DoA list. So, I have no experience with it. However, I have really been considering trying it out. It would allow the Reserving of the Land Raider. Thus keeping the opponents anti-mech weapons from having a field day on your only vehicle early in the game. When the land raider shows up, he can start in the thick of it with your deep striking assault marines.

Those are just my thoughts. I have not tried this on the table top yet.

Can I get in that it isn't quite as crazy as it sounds. Though it is still crazy to risk that many points and if you there is a space in the scenery I would assume your opponent may choose to sit it to block the landing pad.
If your tournament has tried to place all the scenery in the centre of the board why not land behind it, I have seen this happen

Even IF you could negate the extreme risk of scatter/mishap on a deep striking land raider (maybe by clever and careful use of locator beacons), the entire enterprise remains foolish because of how many points you're sinking into reserve for practically no benefit. You pay the high pricetag of a LR for its ability as an assault transport- being able to drive 12", and have the squad still hop out and assault. This is roughly a 21" assault threat range, or 42" assault threat diameter, starting from turn 1. If deploying the LR on the table, whatever nasty assault unit is contains is immediately threatening a fair percentage of the board (while being protected from long range firepower by the LR's Av14), and this impacts your opponent's movements and shields the maneuvers of your own other units accordingly.

If you DS a land raider, you give up all of the above. The unit inside is threatening nothing and no one until a turn after it arrives from Reserve, as the unit inside a Deep Striking vehicle also counts as DSing, so cannot assault the turn they arrive. So, far from presenting a turn 1 assault threat to the middle of the board, or a turn 2 assault threat to your opponent's deployment zone, you instead have a unit which cannot possibly assault before turn 3, and has a 50% chance of not being able to assault until turn 4 or later (as DoA only applies to units with jump packs, which a landraider does not possess). Meanwhile you've got 215-265ish points (depending on which LR and what's in it) plus the cost of the squad (probably another 200+ points) off the table while your opponent fights the rest of your army with all of his.

The only LR which presents a kind of cool threat on deep strike is the redeemer, as theoretically if you have a locator beacon (on a drop pod, stormraven, or scout bikers) in the right positiion, pin-point placing a Flamestorm cannon to annihilate an important unit is potentially sexy.

That being said, the odds of this combo working are very low (have to have a locator-beacon equipped unit in just the right place, have to have a valuable 3+ or worse-save enemy unit dismounted on the same turn the redeemer arrives from Reserve), and present the same liability of typing a lot of points up in Reserve where they're not doing much for you, on the low chance of doing something cool. If you want to pull this trick, you're much better off building the Locator Beacons into your list, then taking a squad (or a pair of squads) of two multimelta/heavy flamer speeders. These only run you 120pts, and have the flexibility to either place a pair of heavy flamer templates on an infantry unit, or a pair of multimelta shots on a tank within 12". Making excellent use of non-scattering placement but maximizing their opportunities thanks to their weapon loadout, and doing it at a reasonably cheap price.

Mannahnin, I follow your reasoning. It doesn't sound nearly as useful or cool when you put it that way.

I may try it sometimes just for fun. Nevertheless, assaulting on turn 4 is pretty crappy compared to assaulting on turn 1 or 2.