Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey i need some help with dealing with a BT army that my Orks seem unable to beat. First though i had better explain why;

Both the BT player and me are pretty new to playing 40k, to this end he bought up loads of stuff that doesn't really fit with FOC's, so we have ignored them (mistake one i guess). Anyway, i really want to get a better handle on CC rules, but have failed to do so because, after fielding loads of foot slogging boyz (with the odd trukk) all the BT seem to do is stand at the other end of the table and fire cyclone missiles at the boyz until they are decimated or fail moral and run off.

Would i be right in believing that if i put a warphead or some such psyker in my army he would have to move, which would mean he has to stop shooting cyclone missiles and actually PLAY the game?
Thanks in advance
Xander

XanderKaos wrote:Hey i need some help with dealing with a BT army that my Orks seem unable to beat. First though i had better explain why;

Both the BT player and me are pretty new to playing 40k, to this end he bought up loads of stuff that doesn't really fit with FOC's, so we have ignored them (mistake one i guess). Anyway, i really want to get a better handle on CC rules, but have failed to do so because, after fielding loads of foot slogging boyz (with the odd trukk) all the BT seem to do is stand at the other end of the table and fire cyclone missiles at the boyz until they are decimated or fail moral and run off.

Would i be right in believing that if i put a warphead or some such psyker in my army he would have to move, which would mean he has to stop shooting cyclone missiles and actually PLAY the game?
Thanks in advance
Xander

No, his Cyclones are mounted on Terminator Armour, which is allowed to move and fire Heavy Weapons.

Get a Big Mek for a big cover save bubble, or put your boyz in Battlewagons. Maybe some Kommandos and Snikrot to come in on his board edge and shake things up a bit.

You have lots of options outside of walking into his missile barrage.

I'd take it to the Tactics forum if you're looking for army advice.

Marine gun lines are tough. You have to walk across the board while he just sites and shoots.

1) Nothing you do can actually make him move. Worse, it should be termies who have the cyclone missiles and then can both move and fire since they are relentless.

2) Your best bet is to try and get some transports in the list.

3) Force him to follow the FOC, its in the rules for a reason.

Yeah - step one should be "use the FoC".
Step two - realize that if he moves he can still shoot tons of missles.
Step 3 - get some transports and a KFF.

Thanks, and sorry if i posted in the wrong bit.

Also bear in mind you should be using the run move every turn to close the distance... even against the back table edge a turn 3 charge is acheiveable...

Veldrain wrote:Marine gun lines are tough. You have to walk across the board while he just sites and shoots.

1) Nothing you do can actually make him move. Worse, it should be termies who have the cyclone missiles and then can both move and fire since they are relentless.

I would not say that. If you shoot at Black Templars they either have to run forward, or run backward. And if they are in assault range they always have to assault.

Blackmoor wrote:I would not say that. If you shoot at Black Templars they either have to run forward, or run backward. And if they are in assault range they always have to assault.

From memory, I do not think that is correct.

The Black Templars move UP TO the distance rolled, meaning the do not have to move.

question How much of the board is filled with cover ?

Godric wrote:question How much of the board is filled with cover ?

My advice would echo this,
You won't have an even game unless you use some cover, 25% of the board should be covered with some sort of terrain, and this should be a mix of LOS blocking, cover difficult. Unless you guys play with this much, shooting will always be a problem for you.

Secondly, if you're following the FOC then he should be too, otherwise again, you won't get an even game.

Thirdly, get some missions going. You'll find that as soon as you can win without even engaging him he'll have to start moving towards you.

Edit: I'm going to add here that if you guys haven't invested in terrain, you can always make some buildings out of plasticard or cardboard boxes (we've all been there), or join a gaming club so you can borrow theirs. With the latter you'll also have some more interesting opponents to play against.

Moving thread to 40K Tactics Forum.

On the terrain front we had about 25% of the board covered. It was mostly earth mounds and craters. All they actually seemed to do was make advancing on the BT more difficult. Also, the Bt kept suggesting that because he could see an arm poking up or the top of a hair squig this meant he had LOS and could subsequently bombard the boys with Cyclone missiles.

On the FOC front, looking at it if we used the 6 troops 2 HQ 3 Elites, he would still have pretty much the same army he is already using. Which does not really help too much. I do have some pictures of this (second) disastrous battle that i will pop up when i find the SD card.

On the idea of having some mission to base the game on, i thought this would make it more interesting and force some movement. In the first of the two games we applied this and had a single objective that needed to be captured. As the game progressed i sneaked my Orks around the table and (after many cyclone casualties) managed to capture the said objective on turn 5. At this point i mentioned that the BT army had not actually moved all game and despite the total decimation of the majority of the ork army, 4 Nobz were now holding down the objective. Mr BT claimed that he had forgotten about actually trying to capture the objective (as he had been far too busy standing still and shooting cyclone missiles) so jumped into action turn 6 and blew up 3 of the Nobz leaving the last to fail moral and run off. He still won, despite not ever thinking about taking the objective. I know this is my bad for reminding him , but even so it still didn't make for a very interesting game!

Anyway, i will struggle on against these religious fanatics and hopefully will prevail in the end. Thanks for all the advice so far, oh, and Merry Xmas
Xander

Cyclone missiles shouldn't do too much to orks really.

How many shots is he firing? Assuming you're spreading out right a frag should hit 2 orks most. Then it's a 50% chance to wound a 50% chance to save (from your KFF). If for some reason they're not in a KFF then it's still not too bad. Kraks are about as good against orks, as they're not getting an armour save anyway.

Also note, he can shoot you if he can only see a leg or an arm or whatever poking up from behind a hill. but seeing as you're mostly hidden you'll get a 4+ cover save.

XanderKaos wrote:On the terrain front we had about 25% of the board covered. It was mostly earth mounds and craters. All they actually seemed to do was make advancing on the BT more difficult. Also, the Bt kept suggesting that because he could see an arm poking up or the top of a hair squig this meant he had LOS and could subsequently bombard the boys with Cyclone missiles.

On the FOC front, looking at it if we used the 6 troops 2 HQ 3 Elites, he would still have pretty much the same army he is already using. Which does not really help too much. I do have some pictures of this (second) disastrous battle that i will pop up when i find the SD card.

On the idea of having some mission to base the game on, i thought this would make it more interesting and force some movement. In the first of the two games we applied this and had a single objective that needed to be captured. As the game progressed i sneaked my Orks around the table and (after many cyclone casualties) managed to capture the said objective on turn 5. At this point i mentioned that the BT army had not actually moved all game and despite the total decimation of the majority of the ork army, 4 Nobz were now holding down the objective. Mr BT claimed that he had forgotten about actually trying to capture the objective (as he had been far too busy standing still and shooting cyclone missiles) so jumped into action turn 6 and blew up 3 of the Nobz leaving the last to fail moral and run off. He still won, despite not ever thinking about taking the objective. I know this is my bad for reminding him , but even so it still didn't make for a very interesting game!

Anyway, i will struggle on against these religious fanatics and hopefully will prevail in the end. Thanks for all the advice so far, oh, and Merry Xmas
Xander

A few things seem to be at a miss.

Rules:
- As long as even the boot of a model is hidden, that model is obscured. If half or more of the unit is obscured, you can use a 4+ cover save.
- If a model is touching one of your craters, it has a 4+ cover save, even if it is in plain sight. Craters are area terrain.
- You may not shoot a hair squig if it's the only thing visible. You may only shoot head, legs, arms and torso of a non-vehicle model.
- Line of sight for infantry is checked from the head of the model, not from the CML resting on top of its shoulders. Common mistake among marine players.
- Cyclone missle launchers are Heavy 2 or Heavy 2, [small] Blast. This means that no matter which option he chooses, it will never ignore cover.
- Blast markers must placed with their hole over the base of a model. He may not place the hole between boyz to hit more of them.

Tactica:
- Make sure to space out your orks as far as possible so they look like the 5 on a dice. That way he will be able to get two or three boyz at most. Add in 4+ cover and even with 10 CML(maximum for BT) he will kill about 10 boyz each turn. That's about 1250 points of black templar terminators killing 60 points of boyz.
- Drop the odd trukk. It's not going to reach it's target anyways, not with this many vehicle-killing rockets around. Get more boyz instead or some shiney toyz.
- Get some gretchin and have them run in front of your boyz. For 3 point a piece, they will provide 4+ cover to any unit right behind them, while boyz can still shoot over their heads. In competitive games this role is taken by Killa Kanz with a KFF big mek behind them, so you might as well try that. Keep in mind that shooting between two members of a unit provides cover to the target, even if the true line of sight is not blocked.
- As soon as you get a decent sized boyz mob in combat with those CML termiantors, they pretty much implode. Terminators can't handle boyz in combat.

Alright, I am going to regret asking this but since you have been playing without a FOC, something else sounds wrong.

In his army, how many models have a Cyclone Missile?

BT don't have to charge that depends on the vow. And how many points are we talking here? 750+ he MUST have the EC

Veldrain wrote:Alright, I am going to regret asking this but since you have been playing without a FOC, something else sounds wrong.

In his army, how many models have a Cyclone Missile?

He has 4 i think. In two different squads, fireing 4 missiles per squad.

Jidmah; thanks this is very interesting, particularly about placing a template on/ over a model. In fact my said opponent has "made" his own templates...they look like tripods or templates on stilts. He places the for of them where he wants them to hit (normally over as many boyz as for templates will cover) then adjusts them if the scatter dice dictate it. Because of these "custom" templates, there is no whole in the middle, or to be more accurate, they are a template sized whole on legs. Yet again i was never sure about this, but as i knew no better, i just let it go. I am starting to get the feeling that i am an idiot!

I am assuming that templates on stilts are not allowed then?
Xander

Jidmah wrote:
- Make sure to space out your orks as far as possible so they look like the 5 on a dice. That way he will be able to get two or three boyz at most. Add in 4+ cover and even with 10 CML(maximum for BT) he will kill about 10 boyz each turn. That's about 1250 points of black templar terminators killing 60 points of boyz.

we can take up to 2 cyclone missile launchers in a 5 man squad so, yes, 10 CML's, but 20 shots.

and i would say have him use the standard templates, the custom made ones seem iffy at best.

As long as the custom made ones are the exact same size as the Blast MARKER, then there is no issue with using home-made Blast markers.

Just have him cut the hole in the middle, and have him use the blast marker from GW as a guide to making an exact replica.

P.S. (It is not a template, that is the tear dropped shaped thing, it is a blast marker.)

Blackmoor wrote:

Veldrain wrote:Marine gun lines are tough. You have to walk across the board while he just sites and shoots.

1) Nothing you do can actually make him move. Worse, it should be termies who have the cyclone missiles and then can both move and fire since they are relentless.

I would not say that. If you shoot at Black Templars they either have to run forward, or run backward. And if they are in assault range they always have to assault.

You have to actually kill something for Righteous Zeal to come into effect though. And since, as DeathReaper mentioned, it's "up to the distance rolled" the Templar player can simply stay where he is.

I really think you should play a few games with a player that that knows the rules and is willing to teach you the game instead of just stomping you. Most of the issues youseem to be having stem from two new players trying to teach themselves a very complicated game. An experienced player can be very helpful and make the game more enjoyable for all.

DeathReaper wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I would not say that. If you shoot at Black Templars they either have to run forward, or run backward. And if they are in assault range they always have to assault.

From memory, I do not think that is correct.

The Black Templars move UP TO the distance rolled, meaning the do not have to move.

Sort of correct. If he passed the leadership test after taking a single casualty to shooting, then he may make a consolidation move UP TO D6". However, if he fails...then he's falling back like normal. When he's sitting on the back of the board, that can be an easy way to get rid of units if the dice go your way.