The only problem with that is if all your PIS are shooting at armor with 1 lascannon, that's alot of flashlights
doing nothing. i like that you have so many, a couple of them have to hit! but that also means you're probably
only shooting at 1 or 2 vehicles a turn. than could be a problem against Mech builds. You have enough bodies
to make two blobs, but if you load up one group with Melta and PW, you're going to lose almost half of your ranged
AT.

2 Demolishers can be hard to take out at 1000 pts. good call on those. they'll be a high priority for whoever you face.
I prefer the HB or lascannon on mine. i don't want infantry that close to my Demo.

Run it a few times. let us know what YOU think of it then.

Or... you can eliminate /all/ of their heavy weapons by not even having AV 14 on the board and having nothing but troops. This is called 'foot Guard'.

Heh, just yanking your chain, but all of the stuff you mentioned has /really/ put a dent into Chimera hoard lists. Lucky for us the IG Codex is a fantastic Dex and has multiple ways to win that are competitive.

I think with your list what might kill you are the GLs and the lack of Commissars to actually make blobs and keep them around. Your also kinda hurting yourself by having BS 3 units with lascannons... yeah, your version of 'mass' works, but a single LC HWS gives you 3 LCs for 105pts, vs your 225pts. I know your gunning for survivability by having them in PISs, but 3 kills and that PIS is probably gonna be running, even if it does get a re-roll from the Standard. If your going to do Lascannons, I suggest throw them in BS 4 units or HWSs.

Sometimes you just can't skimp on quality for quantity...

Jereziah wrote:

The only problem with that is if all your PIS are shooting at armor with 1 lascannon, that's alot of flashlights
doing nothing. i like that you have so many, a couple of them have to hit! but that also means you're probably
only shooting at 1 or 2 vehicles a turn. than could be a problem against Mech builds. You have enough bodies
to make two blobs, but if you load up one group with Melta and PW, you're going to lose almost half of your ranged
AT.

2 Demolishers can be hard to take out at 1000 pts. good call on those. they'll be a high priority for whoever you face.
I prefer the HB or lascannon on mine. i don't want infantry that close to my Demo.

Run it a few times. let us know what YOU think of it then.

Even if its only 1 or 2 vehicles, lascannons have a pretty good chance to destroy them. Against mech armies, I will prioritize vehicles so that key targets are taken out first. This could be the Vendettas in a mech guard/ War Walkers in Mech Dar/ etc.

I don't intend on using power blobs with this style of army, I'd like to maintain a shooty core of platoons complemented by heavy vehicles. Flamers are on Demolishers so that if outflankers pop out ( Snikrot/ Stealers/etc ) I have a reliable weapon to fight them with. I will be testing this list next Monday against Chaos, so I will give my feedback on the list as soon as possible

Or... you can eliminate /all/ of their heavy weapons by not even having AV 14 on the board and having nothing but troops. This is called 'foot Guard'.

Heh, just yanking your chain, but all of the stuff you mentioned has /really/ put a dent into Chimera hoard lists. Lucky for us the IG Codex is a fantastic Dex and has multiple ways to win that are competitive.

I think with your list what might kill you are the GLs and the lack of Commissars to actually make blobs and keep them around. Your also kinda hurting yourself by having BS 3 units with lascannons... yeah, your version of 'mass' works, but a single LC HWS gives you 3 LCs for 105pts, vs your 225pts. I know your gunning for survivability by having them in PISs, but 3 kills and that PIS is probably gonna be running, even if it does get a re-roll from the Standard. If your going to do Lascannons, I suggest throw them in BS 4 units or HWSs.

Sometimes you just can't skimp on quality for quantity...

The Demolishers are there to help with mass bodies of MEQ and to deal with highly durable units such as assault terminators and paladins. They also are a powerful psychological factor against an opponent who will surely want to take out these 2 tanks as soon as possible.

Yeah, the IG codex is imo possibly the best codex out there with so many build variants possible ( Foot Guard/ Artillery Guard/ Mech Guard/etc ). Would you mind explaining why GLs would kill me? I thought more s6 shots will help with light vehicles and infantry. Your right about the commissars though, Ill try and find points to get 2 commissars in the list. I would like this list to only utilize platoons and hence no veteran squads will be present. HWSs will be target by all the light anti-tank weapons the enemy originally brought to target AV11-13 vehicles with ( Autocannons, Missile Launchers,etc ) and will die really fast, giving an easy KP. Hence lascannons in PIS.

Thank you both for your input

They have a great chance to destroy them, if you hit them. BS 3 will hurt a single shot. that's why the Vendetta is so awesome.
3 Shots at BS 3, twin linked, yes please!

Would you mind explaining why GLs would kill me? I thought more s6 shots will help with light vehicles and infantry.

Post 2011/12/25 21:41:58 Subject: Re:Imperial Guard ( Breaking the Meta)

Would you mind explaining why GLs would kill me? I thought more s6 shots will help with light vehicles and infantry.



Do not kid yourself that you can use GLs against 'light vehicles', as your then wasting shots. In my opinion, 'light vehicles' are AV 12 or less, and that is the role of ACs. I say AV 12 because AV 10 is pretty rare (really, trukks and Sentinels IMO) and sure, if your lucky Marines with Razor spam or Chaos with Rhinos for AV 11. Unlike with a AC, your only getting one shot per guy to get that 6 to pen. Same goes for a Str 3 small marker frag... if it was Str 4, I would at least consider it a compitiant anti-infantry weapon, but when you have a weapon that is 50-50 against Guard, you know it is not great. If that 6 is your magic number and mentality, your better off using a Sniper Rifle, as against vehicles it is Str 3 with an additional d3 Rending shot (so a max of AV 12), and against infantry your also rocking the Rending to ignore armor and FNP and wounding /everything/ on a 2+... and to me that alone makes it a better weapon at range than a GL against Infantry, and I haven't even mentioned the pinning chance. You have HWSs in your PIS so your already not moving so your tossing the only real advantage from GLs out the window (assault), so your down to a crappy weapon that allows all armor saves and tossing a Str 6 shot 50-50 down range at 36" as your go-to weapon? No, there is better... and it is pretty sad the Sniper Rifle is one of those weapons.

Now, obviously a Plasma gun would be the best choice, but to throw that expensive weapon on a BS trooper is quite the waste IMO, so I would go Melta gun as /my/ defacto PIS weapon. Yeah, the range blows... but that is it. It has everything else your looking for and more. AP 2? Check. Str 8? Check. 10pts? Yeah, that is worth it... and a additional d6 armor pen on vehicles within 6"? Oh boy! The argument some guy gave me in a diferent thread was 'well, the enemy will just sit back out of range!', and that list had the same thing your list, but in blobs... my responce was 'If they are staying out of melta range and looking to trade shots with my Lascannons that I can issue 'Bring it Down!' to to make twin linked? I win'. Let's face facts... melee is more powerful than shooting, due to morale loss and sweeping advance... nothing can wipe out a unit faster. The enemy will want to get close to you, shoot you, and assault you. Don't sweat the 12" range, embrace the tactical flexibility it gives you and the fear it gives your enemy. No one is afriad of GLs, and are alittle worried about plasma (because they know it can't hurt their heavy vehicles), but when they /know/ you have melta guns, they know nothing they have on the table is safe. That my friend is what is called a mental edge.

Blobs with a Commissar means you have 15+ guys soaking up wounds for your melta guns and Lascannons/Autocannons, meaning they stay on the board longer. To avoid those weapons being wasted and tar-pitted up because they can't be used in close combat, power weapons and Melta bombs are a must. Your biggest fear as a blob is running into a Toughness 7+ MC and getting in close combat with it...because your Str 3 power weapons can't hurt it and since it isn't a walker, your melta bombs are worthless. Now your just waiting to die. Sure, (multiple pie plates) and flamer templates are also scary, but you can get cover saves from 95% of those (well, the pie plates at least) and /your/ still picking who dies, no matter who or what it lands on. You just can't beat the survivability of a blob, so it is kinda silly to not do it when your doing foot platoons anyway.

Go for shooty blobs, but I suggest you play test it so you can really see it in action.

Me? I have my trial by fire with it vs BAs with a Priest (so they had FNP as well as 3+ armor save). Lets 'math hammer' it out and round up to give us the benifit (round up). Say you fire 50 times with a 50% chance to hit due to BS 3 (say 26 hit), Str 3 vs T4 (so 9 wounds), 3+ armor save (3 failed saves), and then FNP (1.5 fail) giving us 1-2 kills per 50 lasgun shots. That was my first use of 'FRF,SRF!' and I got 1 kill.

Ever since then, I have shelved it. But hey, that /was/ marines with FNP, so Nids, Orks, ect will be alot more effective, but most of those are still going to be roughly 10 kills out of 50 shots, 5 to 1. Maybe after you have run into a damn Furioso with 'cheater claws', you too will pack melta bombs too! *grins*

'First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!' can give you an edge in certain situations, but I really can't advise you to base a list off of it. Like I was saying, there are /alot/ of things that want to get in CC with you, you will probably not have a choice in the matter, as someone who wants to get in melee /will/ get in melee. Remember, the only thing you can control is what you do.

As a matter of interest, did any Guardsmen survive when the 'cheater claws' Furioso charged in?

And NP on the melta gun stuff. To me, that is just how it is. Most have no choice alot of times but to use GLs because GW force it down your throat and starve you on melta and plasma. What is it... one each in a CCS and one each in the 2 man box for 25 and 15 bucks? Man, that is just crazy. But most people chop off the barrel of the GL and use the sponson multi-meltas from the Demolisher kit to give themselves 4 melta guns. I bought the melta gun and plasma gun packs from the marine bits in GW for 35 bucks for 10 of each. I am also lucky where I have the old Guardsmen where I can use them without major surgury.

Doesn't look too bad, my thoughts

I'm worried about 3 things, one being all those infantry squads without commisars, but as an infantry spamming fiend I tend to worry too much about them, if you are running these as individual squads (and therefore forgetting about orders really) then it should be a non issue.

second, limited anti infantry, you're stuck either shooting lascannons at infantry or grenade launchers and lasguns at vehicles, note that I /do/ love lascannons in infantry squads to make sure they don't run off the board, but at the point values you are looking at you may be better served by at least one las or autocannon team and a power blob to back it and/or tarpit something you dont want to deal with midfield. Having a power blob also lets you bubblewrap your two tanks a little to dissuade deep strikers.

you should also try to find the extra points for armor on those tanks if possible.

Jereziah wrote:

Doesn't look too bad, my thoughts

I'm worried about 3 things, one being all those infantry squads without commisars, but as an infantry spamming fiend I tend to worry too much about them, if you are running these as individual squads (and therefore forgetting about orders really) then it should be a non issue.

second, limited anti infantry, you're stuck either shooting lascannons at infantry or grenade launchers and lasguns at vehicles, note that I /do/ love lascannons in infantry squads to make sure they don't run off the board, but at the point values you are looking at you may be better served by at least one las or autocannon team and a power blob to back it and/or tarpit something you dont want to deal with midfield. Having a power blob also lets you bubblewrap your two tanks a little to dissuade deep strikers.

you should also try to find the extra points for armor on those tanks if possible.

I've since modified the list to include Commissars and Meltaguns. As for anti-infantry, I really don't want to include any HWSs as I find they get targeted by all the enemy's light anti tank ( Autocannons, Scatter Lasers, Krak Missiles ). Can you tell me any other way to balance out my anti-infantry? If you don't mind, I would like to not use power blobs as I want to test the viability of pure shooty platoons. I don't really like extra armour on tanks, maybe if I had some extra points, I would still prefer spending it on something like a Master Of Ordnance.

Thr MoO's bad, M'kay.
If you reworked/rewrote your list, put it up, so we can pick it apart!
Hard to tell what would be best for anti-infantry without knowing what you do have.

You can give your PCSs ACs too if your going to try straight gunline. You could drop the OotF to give each PCS a AC and switch up the special weapons from flamers to 2x sniper rifles.

OotF is nice, but at 1000pts, there is not alot of stuff that is going to be DSing or Outflanking where the extra firepower would be or more use to you. The extra ACs means you have other targets to fire on beside the one target the HWS can fire on.

This does mean the units are even more static, so you may want to re-consider the Demolishers and their role in your list.

while your at it you might as well spam penal legions? IDK but for gaks and giggles it might just work. But I dont know IG well so you should probably ignore me...

Well, the ironic thing is that you probably want to keep your PCSs alive then! You will have to stop shooting your blobs after Turn 2 and move them up to really have any chance of getting 36" across the board to capture or contest their home objective. To help in this, you want the PCSs to be giving the Blobs 'Move!x3' because you will /have/ to run.

I will point out that during those turns your Demolishers will be out there alone and unsupported.

The other ironic thing is that you just can't afford a LC HWS, even if you pull the LCs from the blob. I know you want the LCs in the blob to keep them survivable and easier for Orders, but your really leaning towards a power blob list weather you like it or not.

Oh, and since no one answered your plasma gun question, you better get one and have your buddy make you 10 copies before you move!