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Hey folks, we're unclear about the following rules niggle here, we're hoping you can set us straight:

The 8th ed rulebook p.39 states "Models are not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat." It's logical to assume that this applies not just to normal ranged troops but to war machines too. However, the next paragraph confuses things a bit by saying "Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy. The key word here is 'accidentally' - you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit."

Those two sentences seem to imply that you CAN stick a stone thrower/fire thrower/etc template on top of an engaged enemy unit, so long as it's not touching any of your own models, and if it scatters onto them accidentally (which it could've done anyway, even if your unit wasn't in close combat with your target, since it can scatter quite a long way) that's ok. Is my reading flawed? It's just that that entire paragraph is completely reduntant if the "not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat" thing from the paragraph above also applied to template weapons. Obviously there's a chance that it might scatter onto your units (whether they're in close combat with your target or not), so why mention it unless it's specifically to allow you to place templates over engaged enemy units as long as they're not touching your own troops?

We've had the same disagreement over certain spells as well, actually. It's fairly clear from the rules that you can't target engaged enemies with magic missiles or direct damage spells, but the rulebook also states that magical vortices "do not have a target", implying that you can aim the template so that it moves across engaged enemy units (and even over your own models if you feel like pruning some of the dead wood in your army!)

Where does everyone stand on this?

You can't place the template over engaged units. By doing so, you are shooting at the unit, which would break the first rule you quoted.

When they say it may "accidentally" it means that it may scatter from the shot, but that doesn't go against the rule of shooting into combat.

But if you're going by the "you're targeting whoever you put the template on top of" then what about things like flame cannons, where you don't actually set the template on your target? You can simply align it so that it'll only hit enemy dudes rather than your own and circumvent that rule quite happily! And then armies that only have more conventional things like catapults will complain.

The truth is with template weapons yoiu're targetting a bit of ground, not a unit, and that would explain why the wording in the rulebook is the way it is.

""Models are not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat"

If you place the marker over a unit in combat, you are shooting at an engaged unit

So if you place it so it's not touching an engaged unit (flame cannon-style) then it's fine if it happens to hit one through a roll of the artillery dice?

Also, is it therefore safe to say that since magical vortices "do not have a target" then you can put the template wherever you like?

Manver, you're right about the vortices. You're free to fire purple suns and pits of shades at your own guys all day if you want.

Not pit of shades

Scarecrow456 wrote:You can't place the template over engaged units. By doing so, you are shooting at the unit, which would break the first rule you quoted.

When they say it may "accidentally" it means that it may scatter from the shot, but that doesn't go against the rule of shooting into combat.

What about the gobbo doom diver.

Can you target an enemy unit not in combat but then use the D6 adjustment to hit an enemy unit in CC?

Nothing in the rules stops a doom diver from doing that. You didn't target a unit in combat, but the scatter, via the real scatter and adjustment, put the hit into a unit in combat. Nothing wrong with that.

You can also target a point on the battlefield instead of a unit as a Doom Diver is a Stone Thrower, and then redirect.