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If Trazyn is removed from play as a casualty, which kicks in first - Reanimation Protocols/Ever-living, or Surrogate Hosts? Do you get to pick? If one fails, do you get the other? I'm envisioning Trazyn getting back up continuously from RP/EL (benefitting from an adjacent ResLord ofc) then when that fails, Surrogate Hosts. Truly, he would be a difficult beast to kill (which is probably why his saves are so terrible for his points cost, come to think).

This is a really good question - I read it as you apply surrogate hosts after you fail your RP/EL, but I can definitely see how it is ambiguous.

Posting the relevant rules in the interest of getting some more input:

Reanimation Protocols (page 29, Necron 'Dex):
If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty...[removed irrelevant bits]. At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6 for each Reanimation Protocols counter next to the unit. On a 1, 2, 3, or 4 the damage is too severe and no self-repair occurs - nothing happens. On a 5 or 6, a Necron reassembles itself and continues to fight - return one of the slain models to play with a single Wound...[more irrelevant bits].

Surrogate Hosts (page 59, Necron 'Dex):
If Trazyn is removed from play as a casualty, roll a D6. On a score of 1, remove Trazyn from play as normal. If the score is 2 or more, randomly choose another model from all the friendly Lychguards, Crypteks, Necron Lords and Overlords on the table (not counting special character versions of any of the above). Remove the nominated model from play as a casualty, and return Trazyn to play in its place - his remaining Wounds are now equal to the number of Wounds the removed model had remaining.

Both rules kick in when a model is 'removed from play as a casualty'...It seems to me that, RAI, Trazyn gets his RP/EL roll before Surrogate Hosts, but I could really see it going either way.

P.S. Interesting verbiage in the Surrogate Hosts entry....the unit that Trazyn is 'replacing' is 'removed from play as a casualty'....which would normally trigger a RP/EL roll. It doesn't explicitly state that the 'replaced' unit doesn't get that roll, either. So, assuming that I'm interpreting this right, by RAW you could still roll RP/EL for the 'replaced' unit and potentially keep both?!? Not RAI for sure, but I'm not seeing anything to contradict it....

RAW, the replaced model would get its RP roll, though I'm pretty sure that'll be FAQ'd away.

As for Trazyn, I would think his Surrogate Hosts would come before his RP since it happens immediately. RP happens at the end of the phase.

if the other model is: 'Remove the nominated model from play as a casualty' i think it is properly dead, nothing comes back from off the table under normal circumstances.

(dead 'crons are laid down until they fail thier get back up rule, and once removed, they are gone!)

lukyboi wrote:if the other model is: 'Remove the nominated model from play as a casualty' i think it is properly dead, nothing comes back from off the table under normal circumstances.

(dead 'crons are laid down until they fail thier get back up rule, and once removed, they are gone!)

Except RP/EL are triggered by being removed from play as a casualty. It's not properly dead as that is the exact same trigger as losing all your wounds - so unless you want to deny all RP/EL rolls, RAW the replaced model would get an EL roll.

lukyboi wrote:if the other model is: 'Remove the nominated model from play as a casualty' i think it is properly dead, nothing comes back from off the table under normal circumstances.

(dead 'crons are laid down until they fail thier get back up rule, and once removed, they are gone!)

Crons are replaced with a counter (not laid down, though it doesn't make a huge difference) when removed from play as a casualty. So if the nominated model is removed as a casualty, it gets its RP roll as normal.

Purely RAW, SH will happen first as it happens as soon as Trazy is removed from play as a casualty, where EL/RP happens at the end of the phase. The good news is for now, the model he replaces gets an EL/RP roll.

EL/RP is rolled for at the end of the phase, but the model is replaced with a counter when it is removed as a casualty - so both events trigger at the same time.

I would agree - SH would trigger first and then should that fail, EL would then become the fall back.

rigeld2 wrote:EL/RP is rolled for at the end of the phase, but the model is replaced with a counter when it is removed as a casualty - so both events trigger at the same time.

Both events start to trigger at the same time, but they are resolved at different times.

Trazy goes down and is removed from play as a casualty. This triggers both events. For EL/RP, you place a counter down. For SH you roll to see if he gets to look for a new host. If he does, then you resolve which model he takes over and replace him with Trazy (and put a counter down for the model he replaced). The end of the phase comes and you go to resolve EL/RP for Trazy's counter, but the model has already been returned to play. Now you can say the game implodes right here, or you can move on with the game...or stop at that point and leave the game set up until GW releases a FAQ on it

Surrogate Hosts comes first, then only if SH is failed/unavailable will RP come in.

In SH, "On a score of 1, remove Trazyn from play as normal."

If you dont roll a 1, you dont remove Trazyn as a casualty. Since he was not removed as a casualty, no RP counter is placed.

To me, this is similiar enough to FnP versus unsaved wounds. You take FnP versus unsaved wounds, like you take SH versus being removed as a casualty, and if the roll for FnP or SH is successful, the triggering event (in SH's case removing the model as a casualty) is discounted and something else happens instead.

Except isn't SH triggered by being removed as a casualty? Hence the confusion. If that isn't the case, ignore me.

Rigeld2, yes it is triggered when you would be removed as a casualty, however the SH rule on a roll of 2+ prevents you from removing him as a casualty, which would also prevent placing an RP counter if he was not removed as a casualty. Confusing, yes, as it would appear to be a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg.'

If you believe in evolution, the egg comes first. If you believe in creationism, the chicken comes first.

Happyjew wrote:If you believe in evolution, the egg comes first. If you believe in creationism, the chicken comes first.

OT I know but...

You don't "believe" in evolution, like you don't "believe" in gravity. They (and many others) are the only rational explanations for the facts at hand and happen whether you believe in them or not.

This is actually pretty straight forward...

Let's look at the timeline.

1. He dies as a casualty
2. You place an EL counter for him
3. You either pass or fail SH

Passing SH:
4. You resolve SH and place him someplace else
5. You place a RP counter for the model he replaced
6. End of phase. You roll for RP
7. He is no longer dead therefore you cannot return the 'slain model' to the board, and thus the EL counter is moot.
8. You roll for the RP counter and on success return the model.

Failing SH:
4. End of phase. You roll for RP
5. You roll for his EL counter, on a pass he gets back up with 1 wound.