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Two instances:

1) If you need to be within a certain range of something that doesn't directly involve your opponent (for example(s): A farseer needing to be within 6' to cast guide on a friendly unit, a necron warrior squad needing to be within 6' of a ghost ark for the 'respawn' to work, or being within 3' of an objective to make sure you are controlling it) can you use a ruler to ensure that the conditions are met? So, when moving my farseer forward I check to make sure he isn't more than 6' away from the squad I want to guide next turn (same with ghost ark) or when I need to leave part of a unit to control an objective but want to conga line the rest of the unit somewhere else, for example to shoot a target, can I use a ruler? Or is this something that is expected to be guessed at?

2) In terms of measuring distance to shoot you can't use a ruler to tell if you are in range but can you use your fingers or arm or whatever other wiley method you can think up as sort of a benchmark for range? For example if I have a range 36' weapon and I know from the tips of my fingers to my elbow is ~18' can I lay my arm down twice to check range? I've seen people do this kind of thing and considered it myself, but I thought it was kind of cheesy so I wasn't sure. Is this sort of thing legal? If so is it frowned upon? What about less abrasive techniques like 'OK, if I hold two of my fingers (on different hands) I remember this is about 12'' and I use that to judge. Basically my question is are you supposed to completely eyeball everything or are some of the things mentioned above fair game?

Thanks.

I'm not 100% sure on 1), but 2) is definitely not legal.

For #1, you are given specific times within the rules as to when you can measure. You can't measure outside those specific times.

So no, you can't move towards an objective and check if you are close enough to it... You are only told to measure how far you are from the objective when determining the results of the game.


For #2, measuring is measuring, regardless of what you are using to do it. Whether you measure 6" using a ruler, a part of your army that you know is 6" long, or triangulate using a yardstick and the position of the sun, you're still measuring.

1. It's obviously illegal to measure when it doesn't say you can.

2. I would consider it cheating if someone put their arm on the table like you describe, but it's perfectly possible and legal to measure/compare with other known distances. You get to measure every time you shoot, so just shoot something less important first and use that measure. Or you can use the board itself. For example, you know it's 48" across the field so if you've planted a unit 12" from your edge, you've got 36" to the other side right there.

Shorter distances like 6" you should be able to eyeball "in a vacuum" though.

I know a guy who simply pulls the tape out far enough that he gets an idea of shooting/assault ranges when moving... People don't always catch on to this way of cheating - for cheating it is if you measure ahead of time.

No one can forbid having a good sense of scale though. It's usually pretty easy to guess some basic ranges if you know how large the terrain pieces and units are.

I don't know if this is bad form or not (and I rarely do it), but if I am unsure on a distance, I will turn away from the table and pull out my tape measure just to get an idea of what kind of distance it is. Then, I will close the tape measure and turn back and look at the game.

And, at our FLGS, our gaming tables are made up of 3 2' x 4' panels placed side by side. So, right off the bat, you have some ability to quadrant off the battlefield.

As stated above you cannot pre-measure as it is against the rules and grants an unfair advantage to the pre-measurer. That having been said, battlefield awareness is not a bad thing to learn, to the point where you will eventually be able to eyeball ranges pretty accurately.

One point to #1 however, and this may help you - You are allowed to measure your unit's move distance in all directions before actually moving the models (in fact you're even allowed to move them back after they've moved and re-do it according to the BRB). Using this bubble, if you have a unit with 6" movement, just measure 6" from the last guy as you move him to see if he is in range of the necessary item (or mentally note where said item needs to be if it hasn't moved there yet). Completely legal. I argue that the movement phase is more important that shooting or assault in 90% of situations, so getting your army placed exactly how you need it is just another part of the game.

To measure is to use ANY tool of a known length to determine or estimate a given distance.

An arm is also a tool, as is a pop-sickle, a small carved wooden figurine, a phone or a soda bottle.

You are only allowed to measure when told so specifically.

Green is Best! wrote:I don't know if this is bad form or not (and I rarely do it), but if I am unsure on a distance, I will turn away from the table and pull out my tape measure just to get an idea of what kind of distance it is. Then, I will close the tape measure and turn back and look at the game.

That's okay.

I knew a guy who'd measure the horizontal and vertical distances along the edges of the table and then pull out his calculator for a little trigonometry. Tried to claim that wasn't measuring....

Scott-S6 wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:I don't know if this is bad form or not (and I rarely do it), but if I am unsure on a distance, I will turn away from the table and pull out my tape measure just to get an idea of what kind of distance it is. Then, I will close the tape measure and turn back and look at the game.

That's okay.

I knew a guy who'd measure the horizontal and vertical distances along the edges of the table and then pull out his calculator for a little trigonometry. Tried to claim that wasn't measuring....

Hrm...he MEASURED the edges and said he wasn't MEASURING.... sounds like he had a bit of fail there.

Scott-S6 wrote:I knew a guy who'd measure the horizontal and vertical distances along the edges of the table and then pull out his calculator for a little trigonometry. Tried to claim that wasn't measuring....

Well it's not, really. Measuring is different than math. The rules pretty clearly indicate that "measuring" is relative to a model, it's certainly not illegal to measure the size of the table.

It's (quite blatently) violating the spirit of the rules, but not the letter.

I think the rules against pre-measuring are kind of silly in the first place. Someone who can estimate ranges shouldn't have an advantage over someone who is poor at estimating. Wasn't that the rationale for removing guess ranges in Fantasy?

Oh I fully expect pre measuring will be allowed in some form or another in 6 th Ed, but as the rules stand now it is not allowed. I personally love the Warmachine mechanic that allows you to measure your focus bubble at any time - I'd like to see 40k do it, but based on the units Ld score instead.

biccat wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:I knew a guy who'd measure the horizontal and vertical distances along the edges of the table and then pull out his calculator for a little trigonometry. Tried to claim that wasn't measuring....

Well it's not, really. Measuring is different than math. The rules pretty clearly indicate that "measuring" is relative to a model, it's certainly not illegal to measure the size of the table.

It's (quite blatently) violating the spirit of the rules, but not the letter.

I think the rules against pre-measuring are kind of silly in the first place. Someone who can estimate ranges shouldn't have an advantage over someone who is poor at estimating. Wasn't that the rationale for removing guess ranges in Fantasy?

I think Scott was saying that this guy measures the x and the y distances from the model to the target. He then uses a^2+b^2=c^2 to calculate the diagonal distance.

That is clearly measuring and isn't allowed.

tetrisphreak wrote:As stated above you cannot pre-measure as it is against the rules and grants an unfair advantage to the pre-measurer. That having been said, battlefield awareness is not a bad thing to learn, to the point where you will eventually be able to eyeball ranges pretty accurately.

One point to #1 however, and this may help you - You are allowed to measure your unit's move distance in all directions before actually moving the models (in fact you're even allowed to move them back after they've moved and re-do it according to the BRB). Using this bubble, if you have a unit with 6" movement, just measure 6" from the last guy as you move him to see if he is in range of the necessary item (or mentally note where said item needs to be if it hasn't moved there yet). Completely legal. I argue that the movement phase is more important that shooting or assault in 90% of situations, so getting your army placed exactly how you need it is just another part of the game.

This. With the caveat that you're not allowed to over-measure.

Grakmar wrote:

biccat wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:I knew a guy who'd measure the horizontal and vertical distances along the edges of the table and then pull out his calculator for a little trigonometry. Tried to claim that wasn't measuring....

Well it's not, really. Measuring is different than math. The rules pretty clearly indicate that "measuring" is relative to a model, it's certainly not illegal to measure the size of the table.

It's (quite blatently) violating the spirit of the rules, but not the letter.

I think the rules against pre-measuring are kind of silly in the first place. Someone who can estimate ranges shouldn't have an advantage over someone who is poor at estimating. Wasn't that the rationale for removing guess ranges in Fantasy?

I think Scott was saying that this guy measures the x and the y distances from the model to the target. He then uses a^2+b^2=c^2 to calculate the diagonal distance.

That is clearly measuring and isn't allowed.

Exactly.

I new someone who used "broken" pieces of a tape messurer.

A six inch piece, 12 inch and so on.

He claimed it made more sence because all the weapon ranges in his army were multiples of 6.

I told him thats fine. But stop leaving them on the edges of the table. Put them in a stack in front of you, upside down, when not using them.

DeffDred wrote:I new someone who used "broken" pieces of a tape messurer.

A six inch piece, 12 inch and so on.

He claimed it made more sence because all the weapon ranges in his army were multiples of 6.

I told him thats fine. But stop leaving them on the edges of the table. Put them in a stack in front of you, upside down, when not using them.

Well, if you want to get that technical, I have the GF9 measurement device that gets left on the table all the time, as do templates, etc. I guess I could take the time to get their exact dimensions and conveniently leave those laying around as well.

Normally, I leave themoff to the side with the pile o' dice, but know that I think about it, it would be a very inoccuous way to cheat.

I wouldn't play someone again trying to pull this stuff.

If they introduce more random factors into the game like random assault ranges they could go ahead with premeasuring.

They took loads of the precision distances out of Warhammer Fantasy this edition, since its more random it enabled things like premeasuring. If that units going to charge anywhere between 7 and 17 Inches or that spell will go 6 D6 in that direction who cares if you premeasure.

However with how precise most movements, assaults and ranges are within 40k it would just be stupid to have premeasuring. I enjoy this as I feel it makes a more tactical game, risk and reward with gussing the distances. I pray they dont introduce the same thing into 40k.

DeffDred wrote:I new someone who used "broken" pieces of a tape messurer.

A six inch piece, 12 inch and so on.

He claimed it made more sence because all the weapon ranges in his army were multiples of 6.

I told him thats fine. But stop leaving them on the edges of the table. Put them in a stack in front of you, upside down, when not using them.

I wouldn't exactly call that premeasuring. If you are that harsh, you should also remove all dice from the table, because those have measurements, too.

Harsh?

The guy had a 36inch ruler running along the side of the table.

That's not what you said. You said he had little bits of tape measure lying around, so I assumed he had them somewhere on the board, like you leave templates lying around, We probably just missed each other there.