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I've been wondering, do you think that the next version of the rulebook will include stuff for the Pacific theater? Now I am not saying that they are going to release any pacific theater stuff any time soon. But, maybe have it setup for some time in future. If so how do you think it will be setup (i.e. japanese national rules etc.)?

In my mind, doubtful. The Pacific theatre was just so different from what was going on in Europe and North Africa that I don't think the rules as they stand translates very well. Naval forces and aircraft played such a larger roll than what they do in the current FoW rule set.

Maybe Khalkin Gol or something like that in Manchuria might be rules appropriate would be interesting, but that is one battle. Not much fun in rehashing the Imperial Armies rampage through China.

However, I say all of this knowing full well that Battlefront did venture into Vietnam, so anything is possible.

Shotgun wrote:In my mind, doubtful. The Pacific theatre was just so different from what was going on in Europe and North Africa that I don't think the rules as they stand translates very well. Naval forces and aircraft played such a larger roll than what they do in the current FoW rule set.

Maybe Khalkin Gol or something like that in Manchuria might be rules appropriate would be interesting, but that is one battle. Not much fun in rehashing the Imperial Armies rampage through China.

However, I say all of this knowing full well that Battlefront did venture into Vietnam, so anything is possible.

I was wondering the same thing. Especially because of the Japanese's lack of armor, and of quality material/supplies. Also many of them would get fearless (though there were some cases of them being reluctant/confident).

No.

Pacific will be released when it's released. And it's not even clear that Pacific will be compatible with Europe. Currently it's so far in the future that even Battlefront probably doesn't know when it will be released.

Its a revenue stream. It'll show up eventually.

Will Version 3 contain the Pacific theater?

No, it will not.

Probably not.

They are not done milking all the money out of people on repackaging the European Theatre. There is another repackage of late war to do (other than the current one). Then all the the books on the Early War, then the repackage of all those books into 2 big volumes (redone at least twice).

But I kid (but not by much). The problem is that the Japenese army had a differnent "feel" to it and the fighting was totally different than Europe. Harder to model on a game board with out either a ton of special rules or sapping all the "flavor" out of the theatre.

Just my thoughts.

Vietnam is probably the closest you'll get to the Pacific for a while, similar tactics in a way.

Lot of negativity about this. "Co-prosperity Sphere" games already exist, functional rules have long been written and played. Games against Japan can be created. Granted BF might decide they want to squeeze the European Goose for more gold before they commit to the far east, but people seem to think that creating a Far East FOW is some sort of unobtainable pipe dream.

The Japanese had tanks, for the Treadheads. Shermans become the new TIger, the Grant finally gets a place it can really show its stuff. Multiple new forces and nations to do, and I imagine that there are players who would sell their own granny for a US Marine army.

I'm sure some bright spark could think of some kind of "Jungle" rule or rules, and urban is urban is urban already. Its really not all that hard. It might even be a great premier for Bf to really get into plastics.

It might have a differebt Meta, it might not be all that compatible with the West, but it can and will sell, just like everything else does. Apart from maybe those weird dust monster things that chase EW tanks. I cant imagine they do very well....

ArbeitsSchu wrote:It might even be a great premier for Bf to really get into plastics.

BF's already moving ever so slowly toward plastics. Some of the boxed sets (US Shermans and halftracks come to mind) already include all-plastic accessories to go on the resin hulls. And the Bridge Too Far Firestorm set included what were basically proto-type plastic infantry. Currently, the only all-plastic product that Battlefront has released to date has been the scenic terrain bases (the infantry bases, not the resin artillery scenic bases), and more plastic scenic bases should be available soon. I would expect to see even more plastic products released in the not too distant future.

I'm thinking in terms of "The whole army in plastic". Assuming they wish to go down that route. Here's a quick theory:

BF (like GW) are getting stung by the price of metal. BF (like GW) move over to plastic (or resin, or restic, or plasin) in order to cut costs. Learning from the cackhanded mess that is Finecast, BF start off by creating a new range custom-scuplted to be cast in "Resi-plasti-whateveric." Cue Imperial Japan, new theater, exiting new this-and-that.

Something like that.


Something like that.

I would be very surprised indeed if v3 heralded the release of Pacific theatre miniatures and rules.

BF will either move to plastic this year or cease to exist as a model manufacturer.

That's going way overboard. Plastic isn't for everything.

There's still plenty market for well made miniatures for one.

The PSC infantry is butt ugly with a lot of repeated poses and very little variation. They're also fiddly in certain details. I bought one box of PSC german infantry and I honestly wouldn't buy another, even if I could use a lot more.

Plastic also has limits on the kinds of things it can be used for, especially at that scale. Part of the reason why the PSC infantry looks so bad is that it's difficult to do plastic infantry at that scale.

For vehicles, BF doing plastic would be a good thing. There's still plenty of ways they can one up PSC in that area, such as doing a better job on gaming grade parts that are thick enough to withstand being moved around on the table.

Also, no one here is poo pooing the idea of the Pacific Theater, we're just saying that it's extremely unlikely the pacific is coming anytime in 2012 or even 2013. There's more stuff to finish out in Europe, including various parts of the 3 eras including Battle of the Bulge and more.

Fortunately, Bulge has been announced as early next year (next year being two days away at this point...). Assuming that V3 appears in February, I would expect the first Bulge book in March or April.

Vertrucio wrote:That's going way overboard. Plastic isn't for everything.

There's still plenty market for well made miniatures for one.

The PSC infantry is butt ugly with a lot of repeated poses and very little variation. They're also fiddly in certain details. I bought one box of PSC german infantry and I honestly wouldn't buy another, even if I could use a lot more.

Plastic also has limits on the kinds of things it can be used for, especially at that scale. Part of the reason why the PSC infantry looks so bad is that it's difficult to do plastic infantry at that scale.

For vehicles, BF doing plastic would be a good thing. There's still plenty of ways they can one up PSC in that area, such as doing a better job on gaming grade parts that are thick enough to withstand being moved around on the table.

Also, no one here is poo pooing the idea of the Pacific Theater, we're just saying that it's extremely unlikely the pacific is coming anytime in 2012 or even 2013. There's more stuff to finish out in Europe, including various parts of the 3 eras including Battle of the Bulge and more.

Half my BF para army is made up of all of three different casts ad infinitum. Some units appearing several times literally only have a single option in miniature. I wouldn't say that PSC are much more limited in repetition than BF are.. and to be fair, sometimes a unit can look better with a little uniformity, rather than looking like Cirque De Soleil prancing towards the enemy in a staggering variety of positions. Its certainly better scaled than BF stuff.

The vehicles are certainly a little fragile in places, though I suppose there is always a balance to achieve between playability, scale, and looks. A little like the Iron Trinity, Firepower, Protection, Mobility. How cack-handed someone is is also a factor.

I see no reason why BF wouldn't have some sort of overlap between Europe and Pacific, if only to have something to keep European loyalists happy whilst they do Pacific.I doubt they will "finish" Europe before they start something else. If nothing else, they are wargamers. When do we ever finish a project before we start another?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Half my BF para army is made up of all of three different casts ad infinitum.

That's unusually uniform. Usually there's more variety. For instance, my BF Romanian Puscasi Company has several different poses for the regular infantry guys (including one guy with an army you have to glue on... grr...)

Its the para box set. To be honest, about two thirds of the figures are fugly as sin, mishapen monkey creatures or some sort of repeat. As soon as I get around to it, all the 'orcs' are going, and I'm getting in some other manufacturers paras. Old Glory in a pinch, Forged in Battle if they look as nice in the lead as they do in the pics, or I might see if PSC get around to a box.

Nice call, I would like a US Marine force. I would love to see a Pacific theatre, it would have to be more focused on Infantry, beach landings, Naval Gunfire support and artillery some armour but not huge amounts. I would love to see this as soon as possible.

Makarov wrote:I was wondering the same thing. Especially because of the Japanese's lack of armor, and of quality material/supplies. Also many of them would get fearless (though there were some cases of them being reluctant/confident).

The Japanese had plenty of armor, but their armor needs were different than those in Europe. They weren't fighting massive armor on armor engagements so didn't need massive tanks to get the job done. The chi-ha tank, especially after its short barrled gun was replaced with a longer barreled better penetrating gun was a very decent tank.

That said Pacific will *not* appear suddenly with V.3. I really would love to create a Japanese force for the pacific, but as a current british player I can easily co-opt a lot of desert war minis for use in the Pacific theater too. More will have to be done to add naval support to the game, but that is not impossible. To save on rules changes they can easily break the pacific theater up into Early, Middle and Late periods too. The Japanese were fighting the russians, chinese and british commonwealth forces pretty early on, in fact even earlier than Germany invaded Poland. Those battles would not require as many rules changes as the later island hopping campaigns would need. It is very unlikely, though, that you could mix force lists from Europe and Africa with any from the East, though. Heck even within the European theater you can't easily mix many LW lists from the Western front and the Eastern front without some forces being close to totally outclassed.

As with others in this thread I see the Pacific theater as a money stream that will eventually appear for Flames of War. They already have molds for most of the requisite US and British armor and the early russian armor. All they would need are more landing craft and chinese and japanese vehicles and armor to be made along with appropriate infantry models. A complete new line of minis won't be necessary.

Skriker

I believe there is a prototype US marine list on the FoW website for download. One of the local games has used it a few times.

Anyway, Pacific Theatre is going to need its own release of rules because of off-shore artillery and increased air-support. It may either get a stand-alone rule book or simply be a supplement to V3(as in, change Artillery and Air-support rules to this and make a few other small changes)

I think the actual game mechanics would transition fine, but it would be a very different game. The board would need to be almost completely covered in difficult going terrain, which would mean that ARV, Dozer, and Crab-mineflail Shermans would actually be useful for getting your tanks unstuck. it definitly would be very infantry heavy. Shermans would enjoy tank superiority, but the heavy terrain would make them very vulnerable


Japanese special rules will probably be something like this.

Bonzai Charge: Infantry Platoons may declare a Bonzai Charge any time they launch an assault. The unit may not be pinned and thrown back by Defensive Fire in this assault however the unit counts as having Double Timed for the purposes of shooting, they may still move through terrain as normal.

Bushido: Japanese companies may may Company Morale tests even if their Company Commander has been slain and they may reroll failed motivation tests to counter attack.

Grey Templar wrote:I believe there is a prototype US marine list on the FoW website for download. One of the local games has used it a few times.

Nothing on the official website. There might be a player-made list on the forums, though. And there's probably a Yahoo group that has a list or two.

Bonzai Charge:

Charge of the small manicured (Bonsai) trees?




The word you're looking for is typically spelled as "Banzai".

They are spelled differently? I thought it was the same word.

I've now got a mental image of a Japanese Kamikaze Pilot saying... "What do you mean Emperor? I thought I was fighting for those cute little trees! OMG I am so embarassed".

mwnciboo wrote:I've now got a mental image of a Japanese Kamikaze Pilot saying... "What do you mean Emperor? I thought I was fighting for those cute little trees! OMG I am so embarassed".

Actually the other direction would be funnier?? "What do you mean little trees? I thought I was dying for the Emperor! how embarrassing!"

Skriker

At the risk of opening up a dead thread there are several campaigns thats would be appropriate for FOW rules with minimal changes as they involved major battles and much more mobile forces. These would involve city fighting, jungle fighting, moderate terrain, air support, and wars of maneuver only. It would be a way to bring in Japanese units to play their traditional opponents but also “what if” scenarios.


Early war:
Japan vs. USSR.
-early war Siberian formations vs. Japanese army. Artillery, tanks, whats not to like?
Singapore Campaign.
Phillipines Campaign
-Both involve large infantry formations, artillery formations, large aircraft formations. Etc.
-Japanese, British (including Aussie and Indian formations), US and Phillipines army formations and aircraft. Even potentially B-17s for fun filled antics.

Late war:
Phillipines II. War of maneuver between Japanese army and US army. City fighting, jungle fighting, moderate terrain.
Soviet invasion of Manchuria: Extreme Late War Soviets (all the end of war beasties) vs. Japanese.

Frazzled wrote:
Soviet invasion of Manchuria: Extreme Late War Soviets (all the end of war beasties) vs. Japanese.

You may wanna take a look at what the Russians sent... Lots of German trucks for starters.

All manner of tat... A real interesting army to build actually.

Try theese http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?keyWords=dean+wilson&categoryId=100501

They say that theese are pretty good and have been used in tournaments as presdigous as Adept con.

Grey Templar wrote:
Anyway, Pacific Theatre is going to need its own release of rules because of off-shore artillery and increased air-support. It may either get a stand-alone rule book or simply be a supplement to V3(as in, change Artillery and Air-support rules to this and make a few other small changes)

There is no need for a special rule book as army specific special rules will be sufficient. For example the 14th army should get the 'Stuka schwerpunkt' special rule and a rule allowing air support to hit more close in targets, possibly something to mitigate the difficulty of hitting troops in concealing terrain would be useful as well. Everything else can easily be handled by the main rules and list design.

if the Pacific theatre appears in V3 it will be towards the end of its lifespan. IIRC once BF finishes with late war it will switch its main focus back to mid war with the occasional Early war release. Once that is done then BF will be free to move onto something else.

I suspect that the main reason that BF hasn't done anything on the pacific is that the Pacific was, with some exceptions such as Meiktila, a leg infantry war and it seems that BF likes it tanks a little too much.