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I honestly think Rubric Marines were good as they had a good amount of special rules and really just needed a small discount. They got that with Chapter Approved and NOW this rule to supplement it.

Spoletta wrote:
Being less aggressive and trying to offer some arguments when disagreeing with someone is good etiquette.

You offered no evidence for your opinion. So I shared mine. Again, not buying it. They're better, but better doesn't get them on the field, better just gets them laughed off the field less frequently.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly think Rubric Marines were good as they had a good amount of special rules and really just needed a small discount. They got that with Chapter Approved and NOW this rule to supplement it.

I don't have the Tsons book, but do Rubrics get A) ignore the -1 for moving and shooting, or B) do they specifically counts as Stationary for shooting purposes.
Because if it isn't option B, it should be Errata'd to that ASAP so they can get more out of this rule

-

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly think Rubric Marines were good as they had a good amount of special rules and really just needed a small discount. They got that with Chapter Approved and NOW this rule to supplement it.

I don't have the Tsons book, but do Rubrics get A) ignore the -1 for moving and shooting, or B) do they specifically counts as Stationary for shooting purposes.
Because if it isn't option B, it should be Errata'd to that ASAP so they can get more out of this rule

-

A

It's A, pushing it to B would obviously make a lot of people happy

I don't think Sisters should have this rule, this is a marine special rule, Custodes don't get it either. Also, both Tacticals and basic Sisters are mainly ranged units, in which role most of the stats marines pay for do not matter. Thus giving the marines this slight edge in shooting-wise too, helps to justify their higher point cost.

 Asherian Command wrote:


Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.

The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).

IT would make sense there would be a difference between a professional soldier from birth with hundreds of years of experience compared to a chamber militant.

Not every Space Marine has hundreds of years of experience. The top commanders might, but not every grunt Space Marine especially if they're actually fighting all that time, and they commonly take heavy casualties.

The sisters are not elites or that rare. They are far more common than marines.

They are as Elite as Elite gets outside of that, and, more importantly, are there more Sisters than Space Marines? I may have missed something in the last couple of years with all the fluff upheaval at the end of 7E and the beginning of 8E, but they never really give us numbers for Sisters of Battle, and only gave background on a tiny number of Orders, and I've seen numbers as low as 40,000 for their number (10k per original order).

 Asherian Command wrote:


They aren't special forces. They are ground troops with fancy armor. you won't see them fighting Heretic Astartes nearly as well as an Astartes would.

Hrm, to be fair, hunting down and fighting renegade Space Marines was the original purpose of the Sisters of Battle.

Ultimately I'm not too bothered either way by what happens with the Bolter rule, some justification can be found either way (same as with the Custodes, if they dont get it, it wont bother me). I was more struck by just how incredulous people were about the idea of it also applying to Sisters, where we really have to get quite nitpicky about it to find a reason why not.

Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

Scions, too

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.

Yeah, this sounds cool.

Sisters of silence *cough*

They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Scions, too

Nah. SoB are better than them.

I disagree, they're equal, with different kit

They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.

True, but they do wield bolters as well. Will be interesting to see if they are added in with their own version of bolter rules

Though I was hedging my bet that we get a "Talons of the Emperor' Codex which is just Custodes + Sisters of Silence + Special Inquisitors + Lucifer Blacks

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think Sisters should have this rule, this is a marine special rule, Custodes don't get it either. Also, both Tacticals and basic Sisters are mainly ranged units, in which role most of the stats marines pay for do not matter. Thus giving the marines this slight edge in shooting-wise too, helps to justify their higher point cost.

This is an honest question: where would this put SoB in the meta, seeing that they are essentially another power armor army and as such share many similarities with Space Marines?

 Luciferian wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think Sisters should have this rule, this is a marine special rule, Custodes don't get it either. Also, both Tacticals and basic Sisters are mainly ranged units, in which role most of the stats marines pay for do not matter. Thus giving the marines this slight edge in shooting-wise too, helps to justify their higher point cost.

This is an honest question: where would this put SoB in the meta, seeing that they are essentially another power armor army and as such share many similarities with Space Marines?

Thats a good question for another thread!

Sisters are far more common than marines. I forget if which novel in the Sisters omnibus goes into, but pretty much any world with an ecclesiarchy prescience will have sisters of battle present, possibly in great numbers.

They are shown as having the numbers and skill to overwhelm the local PDF with only some difficulty. If there are only a million or so marines, there are likely 10s or 100s of millions of sisters. Compared to the IG that's small but it's still a lot of nuns with guns.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

This is an honest question: where would this put SoB in the meta, seeing that they are essentially another power armor army and as such share many similarities with Space Marines?

Thats a good question for another thread!

Seeing that this thread is about the rule being discussed and its impact on the game, I think this thread will do just fine

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Sisters are far more common than marines. I forget if which novel in the Sisters omnibus goes into, but pretty much any world with an ecclesiarchy prescience will have sisters of battle present, possibly in great numbers.

They are shown as having the numbers and skill to overwhelm the local PDF with only some difficulty. If there are only a million or so marines, there are likely 10s or 100s of millions of sisters. Compared to the IG that's small but it's still a lot of nuns with guns.

I would say billions. Not millions.

There are trillions of guardsmen. Billions of sisters of battle makes sense considering how they are cast aside so easily.

To answer your Question Luciferian in terms of meta sisters have faith, no real good stratagems or characters currently apart from Celest, but they are somewhat playable. Hence my suggestion of giving them different types of bolter shells that are unique to them. (or also for grey knights *cough*)

I think it's silly to consider this rule in the context of Sisters considering they have an unfinished codex with missing units we don't know anything about.

 Asherian Command wrote:

To answer your Question Luciferian in terms of meta sisters have faith, no real good stratagems or characters currently apart from Celest, but they are somewhat playable. Hence my suggestion of giving them different types of bolter shells that are unique to them. (or also for grey knights *cough*)

So in your opinion they should also get a bolter buff, just perhaps not this one?

It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.

I forget where i read it, but the training that sisters go through
With their bolters is comparable to training marines so, ie. The best there is.
However, this extreme training combined with the marines alterations that increase their strength and reaction times and speed to absurd levels to the points theyd frequently pretty be living in near bullet time states, it stands to reason they can pull the trigger again on the longer distance.
40k doesnt reflec all that very well; you need to look at the old games like Inquisitor where a marine can rip a human limb from limb without trying and normal humans cant keep pace wuth em.

I wouldnt want sisters to have this sort o f rule as it is yet more bolter porn thar belong in marine stuff. Sisters have to putnup with enough bolter crap in the beta (feel the saltiness over lack of flamer and melta love?).
Sisters dont want this rul e anyways. They arent a gunline army. They jump in metal boxes to get in range. If theyre trying to footslog, theyre moving every turn to get anywhere and dont benefit from it anyways and theyre dying to s3 weapons faster than marines.

So in your opinion they should also get a bolter buff, just perhaps not this one?

No they need their own unique to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.

Basically.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.

Nailed it, basically.

Much of the SM armies are complete trash tier, being outperformed by index Sisters. The worst armies in the game right now are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and non-Ultramarine codex marines.

Trash tier armies deserve buffs. If we're going to make fluff an argument for rules, then marines should have a rerollable 2++ and 10 attacks apiece. We're not prepared to do that, so let's just depart from the fluff when discussing balance.

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.

As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.

As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.

Not like plasma, but something to really make that power back pack a bit more worth it. Or extend the range. The old codex has a way to extend hot-shot range.

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

Yeah because we need more only rules only targetting specific factions.......

For the record i dislike DttFE aswell as any other such rule.

Vaktathi wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.

The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).

The black carapace links the Marine better to their armour systems. This means the armour functions directly as an extension of their nervous system, and includes the armour's autosenses.

The Marine boltgun is also linked to the autosenses, so the black carapace should allow an instinctive control over where the boltgun is actually aiming above and beyond simply having a targeting reticule on the HUD- the difference between using a gun on a video game, and knowing where your own finger is pointing.

Further to this, it is common that Marines are pointed out as being able to parse large amounts of data quickly in a way all but the most exceptional unaugmented humans cannot. Their HUD can display a huge amount of tactical information. There is no reason that this enhanced intellectual ability, combined with the superior autosenses shouldn't provide a tangible benefit to medium range shooting. They should simply be able to identify, acquire, lock on to, shoot, and reacquire a new target quicker than a unaugmented human, even with extensive training.

That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think it is entirely supported in the fluff that Marines are superior at rapid shooting than all but a tiny minority of unaugmented humans.

Crimson wrote:
They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.

They may be blanks, but that doesn't account for their awesome statline. That is just pure badassery Although they may be routinely augmented to be fair, we just don't know.

 Haighus wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.

The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).

The black carapace links the Marine better to their armour systems. This means the armour functions directly as an extension of their nervous system, and includes the armour's autosenses.

The Marine boltgun is also linked to the autosenses, so the black carapace should allow an instinctive control over where the boltgun is actually aiming above and beyond simply having a targeting reticule on the HUD- the difference between using a gun on a video game, and knowing where your own finger is pointing.

Further to this, it is common that Marines are pointed out as being able to parse large amounts of data quickly in a way all but the most exceptional unaugmented humans cannot. Their HUD can display a huge amount of tactical information. There is no reason that this enhanced intellectual ability, combined with the superior autosenses shouldn't provide a tangible benefit to medium range shooting. They should simply be able to identify, acquire, lock on to, shoot, and reacquire a new target quicker than a unaugmented human, even with extensive training.

That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think it is entirely supported in the fluff that Marines are superior at rapid shooting than all but a tiny minority of unaugmented humans.

Crimson wrote:
They're not really 'normal humans' they're blanks.

They may be blanks, but that doesn't account for their awesome statline. That is just pure badassery Although they may be routinely augmented to be fair, we just don't know.

Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke. This is how marines are represented in this game though so whatever. Bolters are weak - they should be buffed to have some sort of special rule - this would be an acceptable buff to the bolter (which is basically a lasgun vs a lot of targets).

Buffs to specifically marines should be made. This bolter fix is not even close to making marines playable. Though - it does make HB centurians and scout bikes a lot more interesting.