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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Talking about the wounds, I'd argue that it has to do with granularity being added into the setting. Marines have supposed to be harder to drop than most other races walking off wounds that would kill a normal man. And while they were harder to wound, they failed at representing the ability to keep fighting while wounded.

The extra wound gives them that.


Well, we got issues there. Orks are also supposed to be able to keep fighting after being wounded. But Bolters are meant to kill Orks.

1 wound marines are perfectly fine. The lack of toughness for marines comes from fighting battles involving tank squadrons, multiple Knights, and the weapons to deal with said targets. Inflating marines as the scale of the game gets bigger is a poor way to play it, imo.

Somewhat ironically, if the heavy weapons still had the efficacy they brought against MCs and Vahicles that they had in earlier editions, this wouldn't be a problem. If terrain rules were better, this would also be less of a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
More people come into contact with the codexes than Black Library maybe.


Just to diverge a bit, I actually suspect you'd be wrong on that score, I suspect Black Library books might actually outsell codices. You're assuming that only 40k players read 40k novels and that not all 40k players read them. but I know a lotta people who have never touched 40k the game who read some of the books


I suppose thats a possibility, although if they're not collecting models and playing the game, I think they'd have less skin in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/08 19:18:58


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Khornate25 wrote:
Since GW clearly wants to make pre-8ed marines and the overall grimdark fade in the background, I sincerely think about just scrapping it all up. I might wait to see how the sisters of battle will be (since they seem to still fit the old vibe), but besides that, w40k seriously dropped in my list of favorite game (setting-wise).

What's your take on the subject ?

There have been a few examples on this thread of new grimdark models, so I'm not sure I agree that GW wants grimdark to fade in the background. Similarly with Primaris marines, plenty on here spent the last year telling us with certainty that Primaris were replacing classic marines, and that a new SM codex would be all Primaris, despite GW saying that they were reinforcements not replacements. If you look at the new codex, there are still way more non-Primaris datasheets than Primaris datasheets, and all of the classic marine units got the same new faction rules as Primaris. The same is true for the Ultramarines supplement (I don't own the White Scars supplement to comment). I think it was suggested by someone on here that inside info from GW suggested that Primaris marines were originally planned to replace classic marines, but that GW pulled back from that before the launch of 8th edition and took a different approach so as not to alienate existing customers. Given the way 8th edition releases have unfolded, that doesn't sound totally unbelievable. I also noticed this weekend that Scouts and a few of the Rhino variants are showing up in the new releases section of the GW website, re-released in new packaging to match the latest 40K branding...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/08 19:49:27


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BrianDavion wrote:
More people come into contact with the codexes than Black Library maybe.


Just to diverge a bit, I actually suspect you'd be wrong on that score, I suspect Black Library books might actually outsell codices. You're assuming that only 40k players read 40k novels and that not all 40k players read them. but I know a lotta people who have never touched 40k the game who read some of the books

Some of the Horus Heresy books made it into the NYT best sellers list IIRC.
   
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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Lore-wise, the lack of ability to meaningfully attack armor at range, or equip with more specialized equipment for particular tasks is a move in the needle away from "realistic" towards "viddeo-game". Now 40k is not "realistic", obviously, but there are aspects of it that are grounded. Individual unit capability is one of these things. Even if it doesn't play out as much on the tabletop anymore, what the unit represents is still meaningful. Deploying against PDF or Orks? Vastly superior numbers with some vehicles? Bring that Lascannon and knock out some armor before fading away to set up an ambush against retalitory forces. Attacking a Bunker? Bring that Multimelta to melt away hardened doors and a flamer to clear passages and cook.occupants. There are more variables to the story you can tell with your unit of super-commandos.

I cant help but see Intercessors like Starcraft marines. Zergling horde? Bolt Rifles!, Enemy tank? Bolt Rifles! Low Orbiting Spacecraft? Bolt Rifles! This is obviously a tongue-in-cheek take but hopfully it illustrates a point. There's some texture that's lost, the story of the unit is different.


I don't want to get to much into how vehicles used to take damage. It isn't how things are done anymore, and I don't think it is completely fair to Primaris much the same way comparing anything to taking on flyers when they first came out. Who knows how things would have been done back in the glance/pin days. There nothing to say Intercessors wouldn't have the capacity to carry melta bombs or something.

The way I see it is sure you can have a Tactical marine kill team ambush a some armor or a key concentration of troops. Being marines they will probably be okay versus PDF or Orks. At the same time, why not make use of Infiltrators with a comms array to make use of an orbital bombardment or air/artillery strike instead on an even greater target. A bit of swinging a sledgehammer to swat a fly yes, but that kind feels space marine to me as well. If I had air and space superiority to do so to further reduce the chance of losing some 200 years x size of the kill team, I know I would waste the ordinance.

I think you are spot on with the Starcraft marine comparison. The intercessor answer to everything is pretty much is more bolt rifle like the Starcraft marine's answer is more Gauss rifle. That doesn't really bother me as they are both providing an answer to any kind of enemy target making them both very generalist, backbone units. At the same time, I never felt that adding special weapons to tactical/CSM squads in Dawn of War were doing much more than upgrades in Starcraft. Probably because I am super terrible at RTS games. Part of me thinks that Warhammer 40k's scope has largely outgrown the minutia individual weapon loadout concerns when it went from a platoon to company level game. So I am not all that fussed about the loss. Obviously you are far more concerned about it.

I think I get the point you are trying to make. I just don't value that aspect nearly as much as you do since I didn't even when there was only Tacticals/CSMs, and I often didn't bother equipping more than bolters anyways. As a primarily a Kill Team player these days, I also don't see much of an issue since your units are per man not per unit so I can have mixed weapons kill teams for the independent operation you speak of. I would like to think that Kill Team is how the setting does put together small elite strike teams. I think the per datasheet mechanics of the game are what prevents things like Hellblasters being in Kill Team since it would allow a whole team of nothing but plasma incinerators. Maybe next Kill Team. I mean we finally got Terminators in this time, so progress.

I would like to mix weapons with Intercessors like it can be done with Tacticals. I just think when is possible, it is just a matter of fleshing out all the weapon options for Primaris that they are no longer reinforcements for marines but replacements. Even though my army doesn't have non-Primaris, I am not eager for that day to come. I want non-Primaris armies to be viable for a long while to always. There will always be people that hate Primaris but want to play loyalist marines. I don't want see them lose the ability. I like the idea of 3 ways (non-Primaris, Primaris, Composite) to play space marines.


Somehow I missed your reply. No idea how, since we're writing thousand word essays now. I have to truncate my response for lack of time, atm, sorry.

@ Infiltrator and Orbital array, yeah that stuff is cool. But there's nothing about Classics that couldnt do that anyways. Right now a Captain can call an orbital bombardment via Stratagem. In the past sergrants could buy a Teleport Homer and bring down Terminators. In Epic you could fire from orbiting spacecraft. And what's more marine-ey than 'bombarding' with more marines via pods!

@Starcraft, we now have analagous Marines = Intercessors, Inceptors = Reapers, and Agressors = Firebats. The parallels are becoming closer and it bugs me to no end.

Also, the Big Assault Rifle against tanks breaks down for me simply out of ammunition supply. 100 Bolt rounds or one well aimed Lascanon shot. It's immersion breaking for me.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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I can understand not liking certain Primaris models, and I'm not convinced "stealth Space Marines" is really a cool idea conceptually.

But look at some Marines from 20+ years ago in 2nd or 3rd and compare. Could link, but you can all google. I'm not really convinced what you have now is less grim dark.

The fluff could have been handled better. I think arguably there should have been some Gathering Storm style set of books covering the 100~ years. But I guess GW just wanted to get on with things - "there are Primaris now, deal with it."
   
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I don't really care about whether new stuff is Grimdark or not. I don't buy into that narrative. I do, however, want the new stuff to look like it belongs. A lot of the primaris models look like they fit, but not all. The Repulsor and Impulsor grav tanks can't help but look out of place. But honestly, my biggest problem with the Primaris range is that it feels like more of the same. We've been getting newer, more beefed up Marine launches for a while. This new line, to me at least, just looks like another line of Bigger, Badder Space Marines, and I've already seen it before.
   
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Darsath wrote:
I don't really care about whether new stuff is Grimdark or not. I don't buy into that narrative. I do, however, want the new stuff to look like it belongs. A lot of the primaris models look like they fit, but not all. The Repulsor and Impulsor grav tanks can't help but look out of place. But honestly, my biggest problem with the Primaris range is that it feels like more of the same. We've been getting newer, more beefed up Marine launches for a while. This new line, to me at least, just looks like another line of Bigger, Badder Space Marines, and I've already seen it before.

Completely fair. The Marine line regret does need more space to breathe and let other armies break up the schedule. Release fatigue is a real thing that happens and this only compounds it.
   
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Tyel wrote:
I can understand not liking certain Primaris models, and I'm not convinced "stealth Space Marines" is really a cool idea conceptually.

But look at some Marines from 20+ years ago in 2nd or 3rd and compare. Could link, but you can all google. I'm not really convinced what you have now is less grim dark.

The fluff could have been handled better. I think arguably there should have been some Gathering Storm style set of books covering the 100~ years. But I guess GW just wanted to get on with things - "there are Primaris now, deal with it."


I'll push back a bit and say that Rogue Trader was the king of grimdark. Not necessarily always in the models, but in the artwork of the time.

2nd Edition is GWs "red period", and had lots of cleaner lines and brighter colors. You would be totally correct in saying it gave a less grimdark impression. However, a bunch of content from RT still made its way in there. But maybe most importantly, the chainswords-per-capita was waaay higher than Primaris.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
More people come into contact with the codexes than Black Library maybe.


Just to diverge a bit, I actually suspect you'd be wrong on that score, I suspect Black Library books might actually outsell codices. You're assuming that only 40k players read 40k novels and that not all 40k players read them. but I know a lotta people who have never touched 40k the game who read some of the books

Some of the Horus Heresy books made it into the NYT best sellers list IIRC.


The number of lore-only fans is much greater than I would have guessed, judging by the activity on Reddit. Many of them have only read the books or maybe played one of the better games like Dawn of War. Buying into the tabletop game is actually by far the most expensive way to engage with GW IP. Black Library was a smart move.

   
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 slave.entity wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
More people come into contact with the codexes than Black Library maybe.


Just to diverge a bit, I actually suspect you'd be wrong on that score, I suspect Black Library books might actually outsell codices. You're assuming that only 40k players read 40k novels and that not all 40k players read them. but I know a lotta people who have never touched 40k the game who read some of the books

Some of the Horus Heresy books made it into the NYT best sellers list IIRC.


The number of lore-only fans is much greater than I would have guessed, judging by the activity on Reddit. Many of them have only read the books or maybe played one of the better games like Dawn of War. Buying into the tabletop game is actually by far the most expensive way to engage with GW IP. Black Library was a smart move.

I still argue that Space Marine is one lf the vest 4pk games to date (also Leandros is a punk who deserves all the hate he gets).
   
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There's a great series of videos on Extra Credits that talks about GW's video game licensing strategy and how GW has been approaching it over the years. Really interesting stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtY3Lto_lR4

For all the complaining we do about tabletop prices, we should remember that there are a huge number of fans out there who can't afford to play Warhammer at all, due to time, money, or other constraints. Many of them will instead be playing the video games, reading the books, creating fan content, and engaging with the brand in other ways that require less upfront costs, less physical space, and less overall commitment. Getting a new customer into tabletop is actually quite a tall order by comparison.

   
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 slave.entity wrote:
There's a great series of videos on Extra Credits that talks about GW's video game licensing strategy and how GW has been approaching it over the years. Really interesting stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtY3Lto_lR4

For all the complaining we do about tabletop prices, we should remember that there are a huge number of fans out there who can't afford to play Warhammer at all, due to time, money, or other constraints. Many of them will instead be playing the video games, reading the books, creating fan content, and engaging with the brand in other ways that require less upfront costs, less physical space, and less overall commitment. Getting a new customer into tabletop is actually quite a tall order by comparison.


it's also worth noting that I need another person to play 40k with, I can boot up space marine and play that, or read ciaphas cain, etc even if none of my friends are intreasted.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
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Although you don't need another person to build lists or paint, either. Personally I can list build for hours.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Although you don't need another person to build lists or paint, either. Personally I can list build for hours.


I can too to be honest. But thats the thing about 40k (and AOS I suppose too) there are so many ways to enjoy the hobby. it's a smart move on GW's part.

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^Agree. Just pointing out that Black Library/video games aren't the only solo activities, which in turn might affect the "reach" of codexes vs. BL, etc.

But yeah, it's very smart. Despite their flaws (or perceived flaws) they're a fascinating company.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Although you don't need another person to build lists or paint, either. Personally I can list build for hours.

You and I are alike in this manner. Hell I can enjoy working on the same list for several hours just tweaking for perfection.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

In real life it's a bad jpke, but stories operate on a different logic. I mean the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is all about the Lion retutning to Narnia. The mobie Hooknwas all about Peter Pan going back to Neverland.

40k operates on the same sort of narrative causality where.myths and legemds can be real.
Yes those stories were about that. 40K on the other hand was about a rotten, declining empire, its glory days in the distant past and the heroes of old mere barely remembered distorted legends. How fething hard can it be to understand that one of those mythical heroes returning and starting to fix things utterly changes what the setting is about?


This pretty much sums up perfectly why I don't like any of the newer books or releases. The return of Bobby G ( something I'm not entirely opposed to) and Cawl suddenly having better marines, wargear and tanks including hovering superheavies changes the setting.

No longer is the IOM an ignorant dying empire holding on mostly due to inertia, size and numbers. No longer is it taking a step backward in social structures and tech, most of which is centuries if not older. Instead it now has an enlighten leader who is slowly but surely putting forward reforms, effecting good governance and now has an updated super army cooked up by a tech heretic.

The main appeal to me was that humanity missed it's shot at having a good future and rather than dying out almost all at once like the elder, we are doomed to a slow decay. 8th edition doesn't have that feel.


I'm new to Warhammer and primarily into it for the non-gaming aspects of the hobby so forgive the noobiness. Also, I have only made it to page 9 of this thread so forgive me if anyone else mentions this between the quoted post and this one.

A primarch returned from the dead with the direct aide of a xenos and who has effectively replaced the Emperor is using newfangled here-tech to defeat the enemies of the Imperium seems awfully grimdark to me. While the Primaris have been inserted into the setting with a ham-fist, their inclusion into the ranks of the SM chapters screams hypocrisy, opportunism, corruption, desperation, cynicism, etc.
   
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^Ahh, to be a fly on the wall at their lore-direction meetings.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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