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Hi All

This coming tuesday (3rd January) I have a 1750 game schedules against a firend who plays tryanids, well ymgarls really. I haven't played him for a while and since i last did I know he has increased the number of ymgarls he has 3 fold, so he now his elite slots are maxxed out will three three full squads of the . This guys Ymgarls list generaly does well at our gaming club so I'm likely to have a hard time of it.

Now my problem is that because I mainly play against marines, I have issues against anyone else. Now I would like to think my current list is an all rounder list but to be honest it has a heavy anti MEQ leaning. So I've been thinking about a new list, however I'm unsure of the direction to go in.

Now the reason I'm not posting this in the army list section is because I don't plan on listing the three lists in any detail, as I need every advantage I can get, rather I'd like to gather general opinion on the best way of dealing with ymgarls and outline my preliminary ideas for people feed back.

1) All infantry - last time I played him my infantry blob didn't fair brilliantly, ymgarls hit hard, fast and a lot and more often than not he ended up winning combats in my turn. Sio this time I was thinking of using the speed bump method rather than the tarpit. Samller sized blobs or even squads designed to collapse so i can get a good round of shooting in after the combat. The idea I had was to split the army in two one on each side of the board with a shooty blob up front designed to shoot turn 1 and maybe two then die with an assault blob behind maybe with special weapon squads designed to shoot and then assault the victorius ymgarls.

2) All Mech - Now I play a lot of mech in my normal list but, i've never gone all mech. The idea here would to be treating the ymgarls like a deep striking army, starting as much as possible in reserves and hoping that a squad or two pop out their holes first. Lots of heavy flamers, maybe even an eradicator in case they appear but don't leave cover. Problem being lots of attacks with rending on armor ten tend to hurt and I'm reliant on luck.

3) My Basic normal list - basically the sod it option, use my normal list hope for the best. The normal list is mainly mech with a 30 man blob outflanking. I'm tempted by this as I'm not a fan of tayloring.

Look forward to your opionons and feed back

thanks
Spank

I'd pick 3, never tailor towards a list, see how your current one does.

You know never know, you might surprise yourself! and with Ymgarls, inital positioning is even more important, last time I faced them with my IG, I placed my tanks with guardsmen speed bumps, so guardsmen died horribly in their turn, I then proceed to tank shock and shoot the remains!

You know never know, you might surprise yourself! and with Ymgarls, inital positioning is even more important, last time I faced them with my IG, I placed my tanks with guardsmen speed bumps, so guardsmen died horribly in their turn, I then proceed to tank shock and shoot the remains!

Yeah i make it past turn 3 you've obviously not seen me play, no seriously i'm not great general, i'm not a terrible one but i'm not great. I do ok if I try and remeber the big picture but some time get a little tunnel visioned and my knowledge of other people codex is limited.

When I was wrting the new lists I did get a nagging feeling, I do dislike tayloring I might make a couple of small changes e.g. devil dogs to hell hounds, saying that I did originally run all inf (got to love hordes) list and they are my first love.

I have to admit tankshock/raming is something I forget/don't do, I also haven't bubble wrapped since I swapped my Basilisk for a Russ. My tanks tend to support my inf now a days.

Thanks for the input Gir

Astropath.

If you get the chance go 2nd and full reserve everything. With any luck most of them should be on the board and out of hybernation.

In the normal list I do usually take an astropath, I had been toying with the idea of an officer of the fleet to make sure they don't all come out at once but this could backfire.

SpankHammer III wrote:In the normal list I do usually take an astropath, I had been toying with the idea of an officer of the fleet to make sure they don't all come out at once but this could backfire.

Yea with the off going 1st is a good option because it spreads out the nids reserves a lot.

Points wise though I'm not sure I'd want to take both.

Which do think would b more beneficial

I have 2 Nid players in my local group, and boy do they love their stealers. (Though I've only seen them use Ymgarl's a couple of times).

My general advice would be to change your list up a bit, though not to specifically tailor for nids. Rather than give you a list, I'll give you a few of my favored units and my thoughts on them and you can work out a list that you like.

For a start, mech up. Mech is good, we like mech. Few armies can present a wall of armour quite like Guard can. Put hull heavy flamers on everything. EVERYTHING. (With 1 exception that I'll come to in a bit). Most of the other hull weapon options are 'meh' at best, but heavy flamers are golden if you come up against any kind of horde army, and they're still useful against non-horde armies once you've de-meched them.

I generally start list off around an infantry platoon. It gets one of my troop slots filled, gives me a decent number of scoring bodies, and puts 3-4 AV12 hulls on the board all for a pretty reasonable number of points. I generally kit my platoon command squad out with 4 flamers, and stick them in a Chimera with a hull heavy flamer, and call it done. Cheap, scoring, and utter death to stuff on foot for the most part. Even marines dont like getting 4 flamer templates and a heavy flamer template dropped on them. Then 2-3 infantry squads (Depending on points), all in Chimeras with hull heavy flmaers. Generally I give them an autocannon and a flamer. Autocannons so they can plink away at light mech, flamers so they can do something to hordes. Depending on what you face, these guys can sit in their chimeras in the backfield plinking away with autocannons and multilasers at enemy transports, or against deepstriking lists you can deploy them on foot as bubble wrap for your more important units. Either way, they give you a good number of scoring bodies and dont cost too much.

Meltavets. Vets, in a chimera (with hull heavy flamer naturally), and three melta guns. Deletes tanks, MC's, elite infantry, and scores. 'nuff said. 2-3 units of these in most lists, depending on points.

Hellhounds. I love these things, it's a 12/12/10 fast tank that erases any non-MEQ infantry. And with S6 it can ID any T3 multi-wound stuff while it's at it. I usually slap on a hull multi-melta (my single exception to the 'everything gets a heavy flamer' rule), so that against meched up opponent it's not totally useless. Being fast it can move 12" and still shoot, meaning that anyone assaulting it is on 6's to hit. Use it to get in the way and harass with melta against meched up opponents, and against hordes use it to make them cry. (And to refer back to your specific problem, this will make stealers just go away).

Hydras. 75 points for two, 72" range, twin-linked autocannons that ignore turbo-boost cover saves? And I can squadron them? Yes please. Murders light mech. Makes Eldar and Dark Eldar players cry. vs Nids either plink away at his MC's, or else use them as another cheap, disposable heavy flamer.

Leman Russes. There's only really 3 ways to run a Russ (in my opinion).
1) Naked vanilla russ, hull heavy flamer. It's cheap, and battlecannons are pretty solid. Just say no to sponsons.
2) Demolisher, hull heavy flamer. Still pretty cheap, and everything is scared of S10 AP2 pie plates. Being AV11 on the rear also makes quite a difference to it's survivability vs assault. If you want sponsons, I'd say either plasma or multi-melta, but that amps the cost up a fair bit.
3) Executioner, sponson plasma cannons. Murders MEQ/TEQ by the spadeful. Pretty good at taking out MC's too. Expensive tho.
The rest are pretty meh, or else something else in the list does the same thing, only better and cheaper.

Scout sentinals. These are actually pretty decent, they're cheap and can outflank. Give 'em autocannons and they hunt transports pretty good. Only downside is they're competing with Hellhounds, and Valks/Vendettas for fast attack slots.

Artillery. Manticores are solid. Their real strength is against enemy mech lists, since a single round of shooting from one of these can decimate a tank park. Griffons can also be quite entertaining. They're cheap, and with the accurate barrage rule they can generally be relied on to do horrible things to hordes, especially if taken in batteries. Hull heavy flamer, obviously too for when things get too close. I tend to take them more for flavour than anything else, since with all the AV12 hulls armed with heavy flamers that most of my lists have, I'm not really struggling for ways to take out hordes. They're quite good fun though!

Obviously, there's other stuff in the codex too that's fun, but this isn't really ment to be a comprehensive list. Mech up, take hull heavy flamers for everything, mix in a good bit of melta ( remember that your HQ can function as another melta-vet squad, only with 4 meltas instead of 3! ), add some autocannons and maybe a Russ or two and you've got a good solid core to build around. You'll have plenty of tank-busting firepower, a huge number of multi-laser and autocannon shots to deal with transports, masses of heavy flamer templates to deal with hordes, and a good number of scoring bodies. Against the Ymgarl's in particular, stay in your tanks, and dont sit still. Make him roll 4's, or even 6's to hit your tanks. Remember that even if he breaks a tank, he's out of assault. Following turn you can move up and flamer his bunched-up stealers good and proper. Hellhounds should allways move 7-12", and apply the promethium pain to any stealers that dare to show their faces. Against a Ymgarl heavy list, keep in mind that you can AFFORD to trade a vehicle for a unit of his stealears. Draw them into an assault, forcing them to bunch up, tank shock if neccesary, and apply the flamer templates liberally.

Get the 2 of the good flamer tanks and defend it.

Stand on all the aria terain (that way he cannot show up there and they die.)

Stay in transports, shoot those shots out of the chimera.

Focus on one target at a time.

- To be honest tyranids is one of the weakest codexes at the moment and IG is close to one of the best. You should be fine. Just be shoore that you are choosing what gets eaten first and not the tyranid player.

Here are a couple of things I go by when I play:
1) I strongly discourage tailoring a list.
2) The lists I field must be able to handle most challenges, i.e. take all comers

With those in mind here are the counters to Ymgarls:
They are bad against mech, keep moving more than 6 till they appear. Then shoot them
You can fill any back field terrain that you are afraid they might appear from with infantry. He has to be able to psysicaly place those models within that terrain 1 inch from your models or else they are destroyed.
He needs some kind of boost to his reserve rolls. If its a Hive Tyrant try and take him down. Don't bother if they have Tyrant Guard escort.
Bubble wrap your army/important units. Basicaly do what the Tyranids do with their onion formation. Set up 1 large squad of IG around your units. The Ymgarl will only have the option of assaulting them and make sure you either die or fall back. Then shoot them to bits



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, an if he is fielding lots of Ymgarl then he is not fielding Hive Guard and Zoanthropes (i.e. anti vehicle). IG should find this amusing.

Please post his list here or in a PM once you have played him!

Hellhounds are pretty good for stealers.

@furycat

Wow big post, thanks for the tips, kind of do most of them already.

He just sent me his list, I'll post it when I get to a computer

Other good units that fit into any non tailord lists is quad flamer pcs or flamer sws.

I dont understand how the Ymgarls are issues for you, if you're playing footguard, your units should be occupying all the pieces of terrain he could possibly deploy in on your side of the board from turn 1...

Nids elite choices are key for defeating guard, so you can expect your opponent to max out on them.

Hiveguard, ymgarls, and zoanthropes. The Doom works alright too.

Well here is his list

Hive tyrant
Hive commader
Adrenal glands
Toxin sacs
Armoured shell

Tyranid prime
Rending claws
Adrenal glands
Toxin sacs

3warriors
Venom cannon
2 deathspitters
Adrenal glands
Toxin sacs

16 hormagaunts
Adrenal glands
Toxin sacs

Trygon prime
Adrenal glands
Toxin sacs

Tyrannofex
Rupture cannon

8 ymgarls

9ymgarls

10 ymgarls

I dont understand how the Ymgarls are issues for you, if you're playing footguard, your units should be occupying all the pieces of terrain he could possibly deploy in on your side of the board from turn 1.

First I don't really play foot guard that often, second with fleet the scenery doesn't really need to be in my half. The fact he chooses the spawn poiint after deployment doesn't help lets face if your playing full foot guard at 1750 something is bound to be out of cover so can assault with their full initiative.

@schadenfreude

Used to run a pcs in chimera when I started, poor mans hellhound but awesome. Won me my first 1500 point game

This is a link to my current list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/420315.page#3738096

How do you like the Devil dogs? i mean in a "normal" game, not against nids?

I have a Chimera that i won on Feebay that came with Turret HF and HHF. It's almost always
treated like a "Mini" hellhound.

I like switching to The HH from the Devil dog. I'd keep the power blob.

an Eradicator might be fun to try.

Spankhammer:

I'd take the toxin sacs off the hive tyrant and the prime. Take the rending claws off the prime. Give the prime a bonesword or lash whip and bonesword.

Take the toxin/adrenal off the warriors and the venom cannon as well. Deathspitters are good.

In general, your list uses too many upgrades and your 'Nid ability of quantity is neutralized. You will lose by attrition.

bucheonman wrote:Spankhammer:

I'd take the toxin sacs off the hive tyrant and the prime. Take the rending claws off the prime. Give the prime a bonesword or lash whip and bonesword.

Take the toxin/adrenal off the warriors and the venom cannon as well. Deathspitters are good.

In general, your list uses too many upgrades and your 'Nid ability of quantity is neutralized. You will lose by attrition.

bucheonman:
He's facing that, not running it.

Ah oops. Should be a cinch of a win.

You should be happy he's wasting points on Toxin Sacs for the Tyrant and Trygon - he's less likely to wound you. (wounding on a 2+ (86% chance) normally, whereas he's wounding on a 4+ with rerolls (75% chance) when using Toxin Sacs)

Honestly, your list is decent and his is... less than stellar. If he's still winning against you, it's not a list issue.

@alarmingrick

Devil dogs are good, i mean for the price of a normal hound you get a melts cannon and mm. It's psychological impact is awesome no one likes a fast moving vehicle that can mess up a landed raider. They normally do ok, as you can imagine they attract a lot of fire.

When I first used them I wasn't impressed because of the small blast scatter, but now i love them. Usually hold them in reserve for a counter attack.

@rigeld2

The list works for him, he is a good player but he's not one I've played a lot so we'll see.

Just to give any of you care some closure, I drew. Capture and control, dawn of war. Went first reserved everything, would have won if we'd got a turn 6.

All in all though brilliant game, it was nice to fight something other than marines and my opponents list kept me on my toes.

SpankHammer III wrote:Just to give any of you care some closure, I drew. Capture and control, dawn of war. Went first reserved everything, would have won if we'd got a turn 6.

All in all though brilliant game, it was nice to fight something other than marines and my opponents list kept me on my toes.

Tease! Three questions:
What did you end up running different?
how well did the replacement do?
Anything come up against the list you didn't expect?

Tease! Three questions:
What did you end up running different?

In the end I kept the list pretty much the same, the only things I changed were Devil Dogs to Hellhounds (which I did used to run but then people at my club started running a lot of multiple Land raider lists), and I dropped the melta bombs from the platoon and stuck another ratling in, giving me 8. So I was running 1745 in the end.

I was tempted to drop the Lascannon from the LRBT but thought it might come in useful and wanted to make minimal changes to the list.

how well did the replacement do?

The hellhounds were awesome, I do love that tank but don't use it much these days because of the all the MEQ I fight. Between them they account for the majority of his Ymgarls. The S6 meant even when they morphed to T5 I was wounding on 3's and thanks to being able to position it I was able to burn them off one of my tanks.

The Platoon did well, until hormagaunt outflanked and assaulted them, took down the hive tyrant and another MC. With Al'rahem's PW of instant death actually taking the last two wounds off the Tyrant. I was so proud it never normally does anything.

The extra ratling was ok but because of Dawn of war, putting everything in reserves and them getting assaulted turn 3 they didn't get to do much apart from plink a couple wounds of a MC. I do think they have the potential to do well against a nid army thanks to rending.

By the end of turn five he had seven hormagaunts, the fex or trygon (not sure which), 1 warrior and the prime

Anything come up against the list you didn't expect?

Hormagaunts, with all his upgrades they ate the blob in short order and mostly without taking any wounds back. Luckily because I killed the tyrant turn 2 he lost the reserves bonus it granted which hurt him a little. I'm not overly familiar with the nid codex so the number of weapons on one of the MC was worrying, it had a nid version of the inferno cannon and the other one dug a tunnel which again was new to me. Luckily nothing came out of it but show again that my biggest weakness is my lack of knowledge of other people’s armies.

I do think that treating it like a drop pod army was the right choice though and would recommend the tactic.

EDIT:

Oh all I lost was the ratlings, a chimera and Al'rahems platoon. The demolisher lost the cannon and one of the Hellhounds was imobilised.

Well done, just something I noted: When the Ymgarls morf for toughness 5 it's only for the assault phase. When you shoot they they are back to regular toughness 4

Really? I didn't check the wording but he relied on that a couple of times. He mainly switched between attacks and toughness

Damn those heavy flamers would have done even better though. Even so Hellhounds were a good call though they were putting down like 7 kills each time

I will have to look that up. But i was always under the impression that it stays until the next assault phase. But if not, then the same result would have occurred. Thank god for that Prime in the end though.

yeah your right to be honest it would have only probably been a couple more wounds at most.

Just clarity which MC was it that was left at the end?

The tyrannofex. still had all 6 wounds.