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Hey Dakkanauts,

Trying to help my friend come up with a 40k list to start with, but I'm not too familiar with IG, what's good, etc. We're only doing Cities of Death - opponents will be Spess Mehreens, GKs, and probably Dark Eldar.

So questions:

To tank or not to tank? Hellhound? Colossus for cover save ignores?

Flamers galore?

What angle do I come at this?

Any input from experienced IG players is appreciated, we're kind of starting from the ground up. I'm not expecting anyone to write a list for me - just feedback on what would be effective in a cityfight. Thanks in advance!

Don't bother with artillery, since you will not be able to protect it and most have a minimum range.
I am not familure with Cities of Death at all, so I am not sure how big of a playing area you will have. The smaller it is, the less viable vehicles become.

Are you guys doing Combat Patrol, or do you have to stick to the standard Force Org Chart?

Hellhounds will do good with killing dug-in units behind cover, Colossus would keep you a good distance from the enemy. I wouldn't have too many tanks aside from those and maybe a chimera or two, I would keep your infantry heavy in HWs, typically equipped with autocannons and heavy bolters and a lascannon scattered here and there for light vehicles. other than that, I think you'd be set.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlkTom wrote:Don't bother with artillery, since you will not be able to protect it and most have a minimum range.
I am not familure with Cities of Death at all, so I am not sure how big of a playing area you will have. The smaller it is, the less viable vehicles become.

Are you guys doing Combat Patrol, or do you have to stick to the standard Force Org Chart?

It's not difficult to defend artillery in city-fight, since artillery don't need los, they can be incredibly effective because 75% of enemies won't have an los back let alone the range to reach it.

Squidmanlolz wrote:Hellhounds will do good with killing dug-in units behind cover, Colossus would keep you a good distance from the enemy. I wouldn't have too many tanks aside from those and maybe a chimera or two, I would keep your infantry heavy in HWs, typically equipped with autocannons and heavy bolters and a lascannon scattered here and there for light vehicles. other than that, I think you'd be set.

It's not difficult to defend artillery in city-fight, since artillery don't need los, they can be incredibly effective because 75% of enemies won't have an los back let alone the range to reach it.

That's what I was thinking. Plus considering 2/3 opponents are Power Armor wearers, the Colossus' St. 10 AP 2 ignore Cover large blast template could wreck. Plus it could destroy enemy transport tanks.

What about troops? Maybe take a platoon or two in Chimeras w/ Flamers? Any other recommendations from anyone?

TheBrandedOne wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:Hellhounds will do good with killing dug-in units behind cover, Colossus would keep you a good distance from the enemy. I wouldn't have too many tanks aside from those and maybe a chimera or two, I would keep your infantry heavy in HWs, typically equipped with autocannons and heavy bolters and a lascannon scattered here and there for light vehicles. other than that, I think you'd be set.

It's not difficult to defend artillery in city-fight, since artillery don't need los, they can be incredibly effective because 75% of enemies won't have an los back let alone the range to reach it.

That's what I was thinking. Plus considering 2/3 opponents are Power Armor wearers, the Colossus' St. 10 AP 2 ignore Cover large blast template could wreck. Plus it could destroy enemy transport tanks.

What about troops? Maybe take a platoon or two in Chimeras w/ Flamers? Any other recommendations from anyone?

A colossus is actually s6 ap3, but it will probably be great in cityfight regardless. It wounds marines and almost any other infantry on 2+ and ignores their armor and cover save. I'd say it's probably one of the better picks if you know you're up for cityfight, since most other good HS options need LOS, or pay a premium for armor that is especially easy to negate on a good city board. There's manticores of course but they don't ignore cover.

In FA I would try to fit at least one valkyrie to shuffle troops around and a few sentinels. Vendettas aren't going to be quite as great as usual assuming your board is well set up. Hellhounds/bane wolves are another option, they won't get popped so easily by long range AT in a city.

For troops the flamer PCS is gonna be good, two line infantry squads can be useful as well but try to pick who gets a chimera as they're bound to get in the way. I'd then take a bunch of vets with forward sentries as mainstay troops, and one squad with harker.

I'd definitely get marbo and I'd try to fit some storm troopers in as well.

This is how far I got before reading your points limit. Oh well.

On the topic of artillery, it all depends on the size of the board for a city fight. Also, with it being a city, all of your other units will be moving forward to get LOS, which means lots of friendly fire with the scatter dice. Just my thought.

About the OP, If you do NOT take artillery, I would recommend Guardsmen Blobs, probably 20-30 strong, with a Commissar, lots of PWs and either flamers or meltas. If you DO take artillery, I would recommend Vets in Chimeras? Or maybe Vets is Vendettas. IDK, I just can't really see artillery doing will in a city fight, even with the no LOS benefit, It just wont mesh well with the rest of the army. Artillery units belong in a Gunline List, which doesn't work in an urban environment.

You still never answered the first question... do you need to follow the Force Org chart or not. I have to assume since your not saying otherwise that you do... Come on folks, we are talking 500pts here... talking multiple Chimeras and Valkyries to go with his Colossus are not things you /have/ to take. You /have/ to take a HQ and two troops first and formost, /then/ you can go running off about the toys. Your doing it ass backwards to build the list with vehicles first and the required stuff second.

Your minimum HQ is 50pts (CCS), and your cheapest troops are going to be 140pts naked (2 Vets) for 190pts.140pts for your Colossus and your up to 330pts, 430pts if you get 10 melta guns to fill those special weapon slots. Your talking /maybe/ a chimera and 15pts of wargear.

Think about that a second... your thinking your Colossus (which /has/ to fire Indirect), which is only going to hit 1/3 of the time with a 24" minimum range (which is /one/ turn of movement if you start out a standard 48" across from each other), and /this/ is what is going to carry your list? A weapon that /might/ get one to two shots off?

If that is your mentality... good luck. Nothing I can do to help you then.

BlkTom wrote:You still never answered the first question... do you need to follow the Force Org chart or not. I have to assume since your not saying otherwise that you do... Come on folks, we are talking 500pts here... talking multiple Chimeras and Valkyries to go with his Colossus are not things you /have/ to take. You /have/ to take a HQ and two troops first and formost, /then/ you can go running off about the toys. Your doing it ass backwards to build the list with vehicles first and the required stuff second.

Your minimum HQ is 50pts (CCS), and your cheapest troops are going to be 140pts naked (2 Vets) for 190pts.140pts for your Colossus and your up to 330pts, 430pts if you get 10 melta guns to fill those special weapon slots. Your talking /maybe/ a chimera and 15pts of wargear.

Think about that a second... your thinking your Colossus (which /has/ to fire Indirect), which is only going to hit 1/3 of the time with a 24" minimum range (which is /one/ turn of movement if you start out a standard 48" across from each other), and /this/ is what is going to carry your list? A weapon that /might/ get one to two shots off?

If that is your mentality... good luck. Nothing I can do to help you then.

Yes, I have everyone following the standard force organization chart.

I haven't decided on anything in the list yet - obviously like I said this list isn't for me, but a friend who plays smart, but prefers offense. I just want to make sure it's a competitive list - especially considering he's fighting a lot of Power Armor and GK's (whom people can't stop whining about.) Both the Space Marine list and the Grey Knights are coming to the table with 1-2 (transport) tanks each. So there's the opponent information.

What do you think, my friend?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

If he's going up against a lot of meq, a bane wolf can do a lot of damage, BUT it will attract a lot of hate and it's not exactly resilient. It has to be in flamer range and all PA marines have krak grenades, so that can become a problem.

It's too expensive for 500pts anyway, you can't buy hardly anything at that level. Why are you even playing at such low points?

At 500 I would just take a bunch of guardsmen and make them fail lasgun saves. If penal legionnaires had grenades they might actually be good here.

CCS
PCS 4FL
PIS w/MG
PIS w/MG
-commissar w/PW
PCS 4FL
PIS w/MG
PIS w/MG
-commissar w/PW

430pts

Fill out with meltaguns in CCS, marbo or two scout sentinels?

I like Almarines list. Here's the same with a wee twist.

CCS
PCS 3FL
PIS w/MG
PIS w/MG
-commissar w/PW
PCS 3FL
PIS w/MG
PIS w/MG
-commissar w/PW
2x AC Scout Sentinels

Yep, that's what I'd bring.

Almarine wrote:

It's too expensive for 500pts anyway, you can't buy hardly anything at that level. Why are you even playing at such low points?

Because we're poor and need to start somewhere.

Edit:
Small points game can also be fun because they're quick, challenging, and everything is important. At higher point values, so much can be spent on "throwaway" units. Sure you get to bring the big toys. But you also have to buy/paint 75+ basic troop models. (Race and army comp depending, of course).

Would 750 or 1000 be more ideal?

I know at 500, Cityfight, for the GK list I wrote it was:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Rad Grenades

10 GKSS, MC Daemonhammer, 2x Psycannon, Psybolts, Rhino

Purgation squad, 4x Incinerators, Razorback w/ Psybolt

I think it's a pretty good list for 500. Though this may take us off-topic, it proves you can take pretty solid lists with fun content at 500. Might not be the same for IG though. I could convince my group to go up to 750 or 1k if it would be more fun for everyone.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

CCS - 110pts
3x Plasma guns, Standard

Vets - 130pts
2x Melta guns, Heavy Flamer, Shotguns, PW, Plasma Pistol

Vets - 130pts
2x Melta guns, Heavy Flamer, Shotguns, PW, Plasma Pistol

Vets - 130pts
2x Melta guns, Heavy Flamer, Shotguns, PW, Plasma Pistol

500pts

I am normally a strong opponent against mixing special weapons, but for a unique game sometimes you need unique lists. The Str 5 heavy flamers will burn out cover save troops, all the vet's weapons are assault, so you can charge and all the Vets will destroy a Rhino at 12" away, much less at 6". Plus the Melta guns just ignore power armor, as do the plasma guns. You just march the Vets 3 abroad through the city with the CCS behind them, keeping all the squads within 12" of the CCS for Orders and the Standard. Against troops, shoot the hell out of them, then assault and mop up whatever is left.

Good luck...

CCS
4 plasma
Chimera
165

Vet
3 melta
Chimera
155

Vet
3 plasma
Chimera
170

490

Short, sweet and to the point.
You have your FOC covered.
And i really think everyone is glossing over how important the Chimera
can be at low point levels. 9 Str 6 shots a turn. AV 12 can be harder to
crack at lower levels. everything is mobile. and then you get 9 moer str 5
shots or 3 HF templates.
Have fun, and lets us know how it turns out.

Both lists look really solid.

Any thoughts on Cityfight Stratagems that would mesh well?

Not sure what you mean by 'Cityfight Stratagems'.

I will say this, the list I gave you can go through terrain, while the vehicles are funneled. If you run Rick's list, you will /need/ Dozer Blades to make the list more mobile. This is suppose to be a city fight, so I take it the maps are 75% or more terrain vs the normal 25% terrain of a standard map. That extra 20pts you need to get Dozer blades for all 3 Chimeras now starts to remove special weapons or reduce 4 plasma guns to melta guns.

BlkTom wrote:Not sure what you mean by 'Cityfight Stratagems'.

The Cities of Death book allows special Stratagems taken depending on points value. It's little tricks and whatnot that can give you a little edge. And they're both fun modelling opportunities and fun to implement.

Check it out, I'd like your input:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440319a&categoryId=100001a§ion=&pIndex=2&aId=14600007&start=3&multiPageMode=true

The CoD book itself has a bunch of them too.

If this is a "starting out-game" then alarmingrick's list might be better for you. Don't buy an infantry horde unless you're interested in using it later.

Almarine wrote:If this is a "starting out-game" then alarmingrick's list might be better for you. Don't buy an infantry horde unless you're interested in using it later.

Really? Did you even read the lists?

I will point out you can't run Chimera Vets without the Vets, even if the vets are not on the table at the start of the game because they are 'inside' the Chimera. Right now getting 35 Guardsmen and some Marine special weapons from the GW site is cheaper than 25 troops, special weapon bits, and 3 Chimeras. In fact, he is more likily to use the troops no matter what list he fields than chimeras. Getting the required '1 HQ, 2+ Troops' is the first thing he needs to get, everything else past that is dependant on his tastes as a player.

Besides, Chimera lists are Hoard lists in their own right. Just super expensive hoard lists because you need 6-8 chimeras.

BlkTom wrote:

Almarine wrote:If this is a "starting out-game" then alarmingrick's list might be better for you. Don't buy an infantry horde unless you're interested in using it later.

Really? Did you even read the lists?

I will point out you can't run Chimera Vets without the Vets, even if the vets are not on the table at the start of the game because they are 'inside' the Chimera. Right now getting 35 Guardsmen and some Marine special weapons from the GW site is cheaper than 25 troops, special weapon bits, and 3 Chimeras. In fact, he is more likily to use the troops no matter what list he fields than chimeras. Getting the required '1 HQ, 2+ Troops' is the first thing he needs to get, everything else past that is dependant on his tastes as a player.

Besides, Chimera lists are Hoard lists in their own right. Just super expensive hoard lists because you need 6-8 chimeras.

I think it'd be easier to get through assembling my list for a newb to IG. I don't play cityfight, so i don't know how much different
a minimech list would fair, tbh. I know filling the FOC in lower points can hurt choices to a point. Not saying BT is wrong, i just have
different take.

BlkTom wrote:

Almarine wrote:If this is a "starting out-game" then alarmingrick's list might be better for you. Don't buy an infantry horde unless you're interested in using it later.

Really? Did you even read the lists?

I will point out you can't run Chimera Vets without the Vets, even if the vets are not on the table at the start of the game because they are 'inside' the Chimera. Right now getting 35 Guardsmen and some Marine special weapons from the GW site is cheaper than 25 troops, special weapon bits, and 3 Chimeras. In fact, he is more likily to use the troops no matter what list he fields than chimeras. Getting the required '1 HQ, 2+ Troops' is the first thing he needs to get, everything else past that is dependant on his tastes as a player.

Besides, Chimera lists are Hoard lists in their own right. Just super expensive hoard lists because you need 6-8 chimeras.

Well, you might have use for two battalion boxes in a mechanized list. However, that's exactly what I got and I ended up with a drove of guardsmen in boring poses and the wrong weapons for when I realized I wanted to run mech, as I assume many do.

Heh... fair enough. 90% of my Guard are the Rogue Trader Boxes or lead figs so I never looked at any of the Task Force stuff to start out with. The main thing I had to do was get HWSs and special weapons, which I did by the same way I am telling him... buy 10 melta guns and 10 plasma guns from the Marine Bits from the GW site, then buy 20 troopers and replace the lasguns. Since I am lazy, I used them for my Rogue Trader troopers so I didn't have to spend time 'alternating' the figs.. well, I cut off hands.