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Okay so i have played roughly 10 games and in almost all of them i seem to either get tabled or be unablw to win (no scoring units, or opd combat (non special infantry v armour)) I tend to run three 5 man Initiaite squads along with a dreadnought, 5 man assualt termi squad, LRC, Pred Annihilator, along with my marshall his 5 man command squad and of course the champ. But i always seem to be under powered untill i get into close combat and then its just shanannieggs. So what am i doing wrong here?

I guess it depends on what you're playing against. Now, I don't use BT myself, but my understanding is that you should be able to murder most armies in CC. What are your combat squads equipped with, and how do you get them into assault range without them getting shot to pieces first?

Thats the problem 50% of the time they are shot to gak before they can enter combat and up untill my last game there was one squad that was pure bolter, there was a squad with a las-cannon, and a squad with a missile laucnher and i have been facing Necrons and IG, two seperate occasions i have faced GK, BA, SoB, and DA. those being in 2 v 2's

From what I here you lack the ability to take objectives. Las/plas squads are great for staying put but otherwise they suck. What points limit are you playing

azazel the cat wrote:I guess it depends on what you're playing against. Now, I don't use BT myself, but my understanding is that you should be able to murder most armies in CC. What are your combat squads equipped with, and how do you get them into assault range without them getting shot to pieces first?

Unfortunately, while this should be true, the only unit in the Codex that actually lives up to this reputation are our Assault Terminators. Anything else, while certainly not "bad" per se in CC, will get beaten by most other dedicated CC units.

Back on topic: How many points do you usually play? What gear do your Crusader Squads have? What gear does the Dreadnought have? What weapons do your Terminators have? Are you running the Annihilator with Lascannon or HB sponsons? What gear does the Marshal and his Command Squad have?

Well the points has been going up since I have been expanding my army it started at 1500, and is now up to 2550. Also what wargear can Crusader squads take? It was my knowlege they can only take what was under there options. My dreadnoughts (3x constant swap among the three) have as followed, Las-cannon Dreadnought Close Combat Fist with Heavy Flamer, Second one is copy of first one, and third has Las-cannon and Missile Launcher, The Terminators are Assualt Terminators so Lighting Claws and Thunder Hammer. The Predator is Las-Cannon Spamming, and the Marshall has The Tech Marine Axe (Not that it matters but it is so badass) with a Combi-Plasma Gun, his Command Suad has a FIghting Company Champion, a Fighting Company Standard Bearer, then a Plasma Cannon, and a Regular Initiate,

How much experience do you have?(both BT and 40k)
You can not expect to instant win. You need to know your enemy and how your own units work and work well.


I think mixing assault and shooting a hard thing to balance.
Crusaders get fists with 1 attack, which is not enough against power armour for example, so I am not calling BT cc army.

If you want a few easy wins build a gun line and then pick a enemy which is particular vulnerable

More shooting.

5x Terminators, 2x Cyclone missiles, Tank hunters = 265 pts

2x Landspeeder Typhoons = 140 pts

Learn to protect your small, vulnerable troop squads.

Crusader squads can take BP+CCW's which work in large squads, especially if said squads are in a LRC and/or have Neophyte meatshields

Oh boy..this is going to be a long ranting from me...

3 Dredds + Termi Aslt Sqd? Aren't these against the FOC? And 2550pt games? Those are almost at Apocalypse level..

Anyhow, based from experience, when playing BT, the only army that I have difficulties against is the Draigo-Wing list. The rest, even against the brand new Necrons, so far 95% of the battles have been to my favor. It's one of my best tournament winning armies (next to Orks, BA, Eldars).

So, whenever people complained that they can't win at all with BT, and I mean here that you are not the only one I've heard this from, my 1st impression is, sorry to say, that this player/these players are either total noob, or really just not a good 40k gamer.

That being said, 1stly, I'd suggest that you ask your opponents to play at smaller scaled games - 1500 to 1750pts seem to be just right for you to play a more tactical game, especially when you are still trying to figure out the best tactic for your own army.

2ndly, Marshall with powersword is very underpowered, even with FC & PE USRs. & you are putting him with a Command Sqd with Plasma Cannon? What a waste...

If you want to make him a cheap but effective passive-cc support, then just give him LC, SS, Frag, & T-Honors without the command sqd. Then let him join the Aslt Termies together with EC.

If you want to make him a more active & fast cc distraction, then give him LC, SS, Frag, Meltabombs, T-Honors, J-Pack/Bike & Holy Orb. Take a 2nd Marshall, or Castellan, with the same config, & have them both moving & playing hide & seek on 1 flank towards the enemy. Given their size, they'll be easy enough to be hidden out of LOS.

Just the 2 of these have taken out a whole 30-men IG-Blob, a mob of 20 Orks, a 10-men Purifier Sqd, a phalanx of 20 Necron warriors all by themselves..2 Holy Orbs + 10 LC attacks with PE will be simply devastating.

Or give him termi armor & join a Termi Command Sqd with 2 Cyclones & Tank Hunters skill.

3rdly, don't be too brave with your Crusader Sqds. Yes, they can be your MSU fire support teams, but if they are being targeted with lots & lots of enemy firepower which are AP3 or better (IG battle cannon shots...etc..etc..), then just let them go to the ground for that +1 cover sv.

Next, somebody have mentioned Termies with 2 Cyclones & Tank Hunters skill. Try 2 units of these minimum, 3 units or more in larger games, you'd be surprised how most Mech armies will hate your BT.

Next next, personally, I think the only BT Dredd worth taking is the Ven-Dredd with Tank Hunter skill. Normal Dredds are just point sink. Single t/l lascannons per Dredd? Might as well swap those for Typhoons - although just AV10, they are cheaper, faster, better!

You said you play 3 units of Crusader Sqds? Dude, I've been playing with just 2 x 5-men Initiates for years now. When 5th Ed. was introduced, people kept telling me "You'd never win objective games", or "All I need is crush your 2 Troops, then you can't win already!"...etc..etc.. A few months later, I was the overall champion at a local tournament using my Eldars with my 5-men Dire Avengers on foot for Troops. Several years & several tournament titles later (the most recent on last Dec 17th using my BT), I'm still using my tried, tested & proven formula.

So what does that tell you? Nothing is predetermined in 40k! Believe in your list/lists & game-plan, but don't be too stubborn to accept ideas (especially those that are proven to be working no matter how crazy they may sound) & never give up. Use the terrains to your advantage. Prioritize your shootings. Be bold & play smart. If you have a fellow BT player close within your own area & whom you know is an astounding general, try to observe & study his games.

I can only wish you good luck. And sorry if some of my words sounded harsh to you. Some times I can be quite long winded & emotional.

What he said. Also check out http://www.implausiblenature.net/. You will learn alot about how BT work.

@mfletch: I dont have to much experience and am still learning everything, so I dont expect to win every game, however I would like to atleast make the matches competitive which they really havent been for me.

@traceoftoxin: Thats what I have been thinking but I am so limited in those choices.

@marshalldin: I see your rant and will match point per point.

1. The dreds swap out depening on my oppenent, etc.

2. *omit*

3: Still a noob lol

4:Yea but the thing is my main oppenent is IG and has a hardon for template weapons, so i need something to match his punches (LRC) and it causes a stupid arms race.

5: I will look into this,

6: *see 5*

7: I have been considering this as well, if not just thorwing in Helbrecht or Grimualdus

8/9: Oh my.

10:Never am but as is the problem when facing the Guard stay back, get blown up, move in get blown up.

11:Termis are currently being looked for so yea.

12: Is there any other type of Dred other then Ven-Dredd that are worth taking.....in the BT anyway.

13: Well yea but the 3 x 5 man speciaized squads leave for some great momnts.

14: I wish there was another player, but from my time at my local shop there is no other Templar player yet.

Looking at your original list...is the only transport unit you have that one LRC? I'm something of a noob to BT myself, but just about every competitive list I've seen has your guys in a transport at all times.

Again, maybe I'm exposing my lack of experience with BT here, but if you're playing a match against IG, do not ever get into an arms race, because you cannot win when you play that game against IG.

Play your own game. IG is great at dropping pie plates, but they're pretty squishy up close. I seem to recall that BT have some pretty terrifying rules with their drop pods. Look into those. I think you'll do very well against IG if you land some drop pods right in their face on turn 1.

Or go for the USMC phrase: "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome."

azazel the cat wrote:Again, maybe I'm exposing my lack of experience with BT here, but if you're playing a match against IG, do not ever get into an arms race, because you cannot win when you play that game against IG.

Play your own game. IG is great at dropping pie plates, but they're pretty squishy up close. I seem to recall that BT have some pretty terrifying rules with their drop pods. Look into those. I think you'll do very well against IG if you land some drop pods right in their face on turn 1.

Templars don't have Drop Pod Assault, so their pods land from normal Reserves. They're also kind of overpriced and lack the short range firepower to really punish someone on the turn that they land. They work far better as a stand off infantry army, sniping tanks with lascannons and Cyclones, then closing to mop up with Tactical Terminators.

Learn from Firaveous Carron's hate and HIDE IN METAL BAWKSES. Rhinos and/or (overcosted) razorbacks

What is your typical list contain not just what you said earlier but post a list so we can take a look at and tell you how to manipulate it further if possible, and if possible your opponents
then we can disscuss tactics a little better.

this is a lot, and i have to head out so i will for now comply with @whrextheimpaler's statement for now,

(Usual List)
Hq:
Marshall:
Lighting Claw
Bolter

Emperors Champion:
AACNMTO

Cs:
Slandered
Fighting Company Champion
Bolter
Bolter
Bolt Pistol/Chain Sword

Elite:
Assault Terminators
4 LC
1 TH

Ven-Dredd
LC
ML

Troops
Squad 1
LC
4 bolters

Squad 2
ML
4 Bolters

Heavy Support:
Predator Annihilator
LC side sponsors

LRC

This is the general version, sometimes i though in upgrades, here and there,

What i posted recently is mainly what my new list will consist of since the holidays were nice to me,

Issues with this:

Marshal has no invul

CS is a bit weak

need more Special Weapons in the squads

OK lets see what i can do hm

First do your termies deep strike or assault out of your LRC?

marshal - give him a TH SS Termie armour and Termie honors, iron halo

EC= good

CS - drop

Assault Termies- I love Assault Termies but unless they are assualting they are useless so (if your dsing them) id make them regular Termies and DS them. give them an assault cannon and a typhoon ML and tank hunters, then go punch things (tanks) in the face.

Ven dread is good (i usually keep mine with a fist and heavy flamer and ds mine either way cost is same W/O drop pod).
give him tank hunters, and smoke launchers

2 Crusader squads - Keep las take plasma gun, put both in rhinos this will allow you to move and fire more effectively PG and las can fire from rear hatch.
land speeders take 2 but not in squadrons both Tornados
Pred annihilator if you need one take one more
LRC giant target... lol

So here is a little list for you

Marshal -TA, TH, SB , Termie honors, iron halo (put with Termies squad)

Ec - same

(5 man) non assault Termie squad - 2 Typhoon tank hunters (DS)

(5 man) non assault Termie squad - 2 Typhoon tank hunters (DS)

Ven dread TL las, ML, tank hunters

(5 man) Crusader squad - Las, PG
Rhino

(5 man) Crusader squad - Las, PG
Rhino

(5 man) CC Crusader squad Chainswords bolt pistols in LRC with EC

LST Assault cannon, HB          

LST Assault cannon, HB

Annihilator TL LAS w/ Las sides

Annihilator TL LAs w/ Las sides

LRC (CC crusaders with EC)

1750

(If you are playing 1850 add 5 initiates to the CC Crusader squad along w/ Pw and melta gun)

Terminator armour comes with terminator honours and dont bother with the Iron halo if you take the SS the Adamantine mantle is a must for me though

Wait don't SS only give 4 + for CC?

For Termie Honors it gives +1 to that models attacks, plus raising ld, and it says earns the right to wear not giving, you have to pay for both.

No check the FAQ everything is updated. And I'm certain that terminator armour includes Honours

@whrextheimpaler: Models wearing the Terminator Armour automatically has Terminator Honours at no extra cost (Codex BT, page 29, TERMINATOR ARMOUR - paragraph 2).

BT's SS have been FAQ-ed to be the equivalent of the current std version of other Imperial MEQs.

My comments about your suggestions in general:-
1. Those are not at 1750pts. Your suggested army list is about 2097pts.

2. Your Termie-Marshall has some redundant wargears (already commented above). If you want slightly shooty termie-Marshall, might as well give him combi bolter-melta/bolter-plasma. Stormbolter is just not that good. Also, instead of Iron Halo, Adamantine Mantle would suit him better.

Thus, your version:

Marshal -TA, TH, SB , Termie honors, iron halo (put with Termies squad)

=180pts (2+/4++, S8, A4, 15pts redundant on Terminator Honours)

My version: Marshall, TA, TH or CF, Combi Bolter-Melta/Plasma, Adamantine Mantle = 185pts (2+/5++, S8 or S8+2d6, A4, immunity to Instant Death)

Normally, with these set-ups, I'd attached him to a Terminator Command Squad instead of joining a normal Elite choice Terminator Sqd. The former would let him to gain a Veteran Skill (preferably Tank Hunter), while the latter wouldn't give him much benefit.

3. If you are not including any Assault Terminators in your list, why bother taking the LRC?. Just to have AV14 transport for your sub-par 5-men cc Crusader Sqd? What a way to waste 350pts.

Personally I wouldn't even take a cc Crusader Sqd, but if you really want to, might as well give them the proper tools i.e. a flamer/meltagun + a power weapon/powerfist, & a Rhino (waaay cheaper).

4. The rest are quite ok I guess.

Doesn't Adamantine Mantle only grant immunity to instant death by high strength?

@Marshal Yes you are right had to triple check then realized i posted the wrong list my bad, sorry bout that.

I finally found Termie honors smudged, but found it.

In all means im not the op and i meant to give him a few ideas of how he could do more shooting compared to wat he was using

Why mantle if you don't mind me asking?

As for the Termie squads the elites still get tank hunters so why wouldn't they benefit from it?

Crusader squads my original intent was keeping 2 crusader squads in rhinos, no lrc or cc crusader squad, the list i posted was something i wanted to do as trial list of my own and it needed alot of tweaking.

@Jidmah yes anything double his toughness he will only take a single wound

@Whrextheimpaler: Yup, sorry for mistaking you for the OP..

If the Marshall joins the Elite Terminator Sqd, then he wouldn't benefit from the Tank Hunter skill. The only way for him to gain any Vet.Skill is from leading a normal Command Sqd or a terminator Command Sqd where we have to pay for the Vet.Skill point costs upgrade for all leading/attached characters.

Why Mantle? The OP's archnemesis is the IG. With a mantle, he'll be able to withstand all the S8/S9/S10 shots that IG have in abundance & thus will have a bigger fighting chance to smack the tanks to scrap metals.

My personal experience? I used a slightly different build: Marshall with TA, CF, SS, Mantle joining 4-men Terminator Command Sqd with Tank Hunters skill. 2+/3++, Immune to Instant Death, S8 + 2d6 +1 for armour penetration, 4 extra members to soak up wounds + wounds allocation shenanigans - what not to like about them?

Put them in the front-line & let loose. They became such a fire magnet that the rest of the army were almost untouched. Taking advantage of Righteous Zeal + Crusader Seal, they reached the IG line in Turn 2 & wrecked havoc. No doubt they were eventually destroyed, but not before destroying enough enemy units/tanks to get back their points.

To be fair, I should also put forth my suggested 1750 list:-

HQs.
1. Marshall: TA, CF, SS, Mantle, 4-men Terminator Command Sqd, 2 x Cyclone MLs, Tank Hunters skill

2. EC: AACNMTO

TROOPS
1. Crusader Sqd: 5 Initiates, 1 x Lascannon

2. Crusader Sqd: 5 Initiates, 1 x Lascannon

3. Crusader Sqd: 5 Initiates, 1 x Lascannon

ELITES
1. Terminator Command: 2 x Cyclone MLs, 1 x CF, Tank Hunters skill

2. Terminator Command: 2 x Cyclone MLs, 1 x CF, Tank Hunters skill

3. Terminator Command: 2 x Cyclone MLs, Tank Hunters skill

FAST ATTACKS
1. Land Speeder Typhoon

2. Land Speeder Typhoon

Total = 1750pts
KP Awarded = 11

This list boasts around 16 mobile Frag/Krag misiles with Tank Hunters skill & 4 normal Frag/Krag misiles + 3 Lascannons. At 1750pts level, for any MEQs, that is a lot of firepowers.

Normally I just need 2 Troops (thus I'd have another Typhoon), but I modified the list to suit the OP's preference of using 3 Crusader Sqds.

Sure, the IG opponent can take Executioners or equip the Russes with PC sponsons to counter this list, but so far we see these very seldomly especially at smaller game level. Not sure about the OP's opponent, more often than not most IG players take mass LRBTs, or Demolishers, or Manticores + Veterans or Infantry-Blob spam, which wouldn't hurt my list that much.

Nice and all is good.

Excellent work everyone! I'm a friend and a necron opponent of Notod and I can atest to some of his issues...

1) the IG and Necron battles have been against our group of friends(with orkz joining too) and we're all learning so mistakes in favor(and against) both parties have led to VERY skewed games, so I'd say half of his losses don't even count (I.E. IG thought First rank fire, second rank fire affected plasma guns...)

2) Several battles against IG have been long ways on a 6'+ table with IG having a basilisk or a manticore(and vendettas) while Notod had only a LR for transport...

3) The 1850 battle against necrons wasn't me, but a guy who had just finished creaming a veteran SPACE WOLF player...

4) He needs to learn to set even terrain, such as when I defeated him, it was on the short ways on a table and half of the board was LOTS of cover, allowing my 6 scarabs to pop his ven dread on turn 1 and his pred on turn 2...