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Hi Guys,

In advance I apologise if asking for this degree of help without submitting my own list is inappropriate but I didn't see anything in the sticky that said otherwise. Berate me with death threats if I misread .

I'm coming to the dark W:40k side from W:Fantasy, as of yet have little to no grasp of 40k rules as I haven't had a chance to read the rulebook yet.
That being said; I love the fluff, look and feel of Imperial Guard and have my heart set on purchasing a small truck load of miniatures when I get back from overseas.

However, with my disgraceful lack of knowledge I need help constructing a list from scratch, also a basic run down of how the units should be used (unless I should ask that in the tactics section of the forum).
My two main opponents will be Dark Eldar & Space Wolves.
I'd probably lean toward a balanced focus, although more and more am I looking at a mechanised vet list.
I also want at least two Vendettas in the list (love the model to death).
Having 1 or 2 leman Russ rolling with them would also add to my elation .

Any assistance positive and negative is accepted.

Regards,
Walter

I'm pretty much in the same position as you, just starting again and wanting to go towards IG - mech list.

It seems like the basic line up is:

Command Squad (x1)
4x Plasmas/Meltas
Chimera

Vet Squad (x4)
3x Plasmas/Meltas
Chimera

Vendetta (x3)

Leman Russ (x2)

Manticore (x1)

Of course the numbers of squads are varied. Everything really depends on how big the list you will want to be. This is just a really basic list. How big are you looking to go at first?

Welcome to 40k and IG!

First thing I suggest is get the base rule book ASAP, but if you hold off, 6th Ed is coming down the pipeline within the next year. Unless they do something crazy, the IG Codex was built with 6th in mind, so you shouldn't worry to much.

I, personally, would still get the base rule book and the Codex when you get back. Start small to figure out your play style (aggressive or defensive) and then decide if you want to do mech or foot. I will point out that both lists have armies that can just crush them so there is no 'magic bullet' list.

Just remember that the 'toys' are great, but you /have/ to have a HQ and two troop choices. Force organization is 1-2 HQs, 0-3 Elites, 2+ Troops, 0-3 Fast, 0-3 Heavy.

Some general rules for IG...
Use the right weapons for the right Balistic Skill (BS). I like Meltas and Flamers for BS 3 troops, and Melta or Plasma guns for BS 4.
Special weapon slots shouldn't be wasted.
Best Heavy Weapons are Lascannons (LC) for Armor Value (AV) 12+ and Autocannons (AC) for AV 12 or less and troops. If your going to put a heavy weapon on a BS 4 unit, get the LC, AC for BS 3.
If you get a Leman Russ Battle Tank (LRBT), remember that all but the Vanquisher are anti-infantry vehicles. Also a LRBT that isn't moving every round is a dead LRBT, so consider that strongly if you slap sponsons on them. They have a special rule called 'Lumbering Behemoth' that says they can move 6" and fire one weapon and the turret weapon (normal is you move 6" and fire 1 weapon). Infantry can auto-hit vehicles that don't move, hitting against their rear armor (usally the weakest armor).
For reliable long range Anti-Tank (AT), either get Vendettas or LC Heavy Weapon Squads (HWSs).
For static troops, cover is your friend.

It will be hard for folks to really build you a list because we are not you, we do not know how you play. Play some combat patrol games (400pts) when you get back and then come back. Hopefully you should know the rules some and have some experience to know what and how you want to play and folk can better help you.

But first off, make sure you get home safe! Then worry about it... good luck and get home safe!

Good to see others in a similar situation Menziez. Thanks for that list, I've seen very similar ideas floating around. My biggest question mark for me personally would be on the manticore though, purely as I have no idea if i have the experience yet to keep it being useful and safe.

Ties into what BlkTom was saying though, at this stage I don't know if I'm defensive or aggressive yet, it's a whole different ball game to fantasy. That info is golden though, very helpful indeed. Much appreciated.

Welcome to the excellent world of guard.

Generally speaking mech are the better choice out of foot or mech. The way reason why is because to experienced gamers they can tell how the game is going to play out from turn 1/2 onwards. With mech lists you can change your mind very rapidly messing their evil plan up. at my flgs a very good p;ayer their messes any foot list up because he sets up to be very powerful at one point. so a mech list just sets up going in one diresction so a very strong point is set up one way then you just go the other way.

That's just my 2 cents, that's also just what I think personally. Plus alot of learning people like yourself don't pack enough anti tank to kill off mech lists.

Also a thing to choose is do you want to be a nice general and care for his men alot or just meat grind about 200 guardsmen into the enemy to save your might heavy vehicles.( Very good sight seeing it happen, it looks so cool)

Well I've rabbled on too much, anyway what biktom said is very true and take his advice more then mine as he is more experienced then me.

Oh man welcome to 40k, fantasy how lame is that ahahaha.

I obviously don't play fantasy so don't know how it works there, but when you make a list in 40k it's about covering your bases. There's a bunch of different guns in this game and they're good at killing specific things. Basically, writing a list is about balancing the ratios between different types of firepower to cover your needs. Since the same guns and types of guns can go on different platforms, you can also affect the effectiveness of your opponents' guns, for example taking only guardsmen on foot will make your opponents' expensive lascannons about as useful as bolters.

There's also other stuff, like psychic powers and assault, but not really when you're IG.

Important stuff to have in a list (non-exhaustive):
anti-tank
-long range (lascannons, missiles)
-short range (melta)
-suppression/anti-transport (autocannons, missiles)
anti-infantry
-light/horde
-heavy/meq (ap3 or better)

One way to write a list is to start with the units you want, then work from their strengths and weaknesses to include what else you need. It sounds like you would start with vendettas, which is good because they're the cheapest true AT firepower in the game. If you're excited about the model you should definitely get at least two. With two vendettas you've got a good start on AT, but they are fragile so usually don't get to shoot for long so you'll need more. You should work to include AT weapons as your first priority because they're not bad at most other things and you usually get anti-infantry whether you like it or not in the form of lasguns and heavy flamers stuck on vehicles.

DE strengths:
-every model is an assault specialist when compared to a guardsman
-very fast transports that allow disembark-assaults
-splinter cannons everywhere kill guardsmen no problem
-cheap FNP makes their supposedly light infantry much harder to kill than you think
-there's often quite a lot of units of them
DE weaknesses:
-no reliable AT once you've taken out their ravagers and trueborn
-very thin vehicles, if you can get past their cover saves

SW strengths:
-too many to really number like this, their codex has lots of good stuff
-every model is an assault specialist when compared to a guardsman
-they can easily fit lots of AT weapons in their lists with long fangs, razorbacks etc
-rune priests massacre blobs with bad weather, suppress vehicles with lightning
SW weaknesses:
-everyone's prepared for razorwolves
-outflankers harassing their long fangs
-leadership is on par with guardsmen, they will occasionally fall back/get pinned
-they die like little girls to IG artillery/tanks

Some units I think you should consider:
-vendettas make paper pie out of any DE vehicle and most SW, just watch the long fangs
-CCS w/4PG can mow down marines and hurt DE vehicles in a pinch, plus it's the go-to HQ anyway
-vets in chimeras for troops, because DE and SW are great at killing guardsmen on foot and you want to sweat the DE AT, plus their multilasers can bring down a venom or two per game with some luck.
-a colossus is super great at killing marines regardless of cover status, and at killing unhorsed DE even negating their FNP. It won't always hit though.
-hydras are perhaps the ultimate weapons against DE, easily taking out their transports by ignoring cover, and for half the cost of a vendetta

Well I guess those are pretty much the standard mech IG units, minus manticore plus colossus. Manticores are good too : P

Haha, I don't fault you for being sceptical of fantasy. I assumed 40k had no strategy and was akin to US civil war tactic; two lines taking pot shots at each other. I'm slowly learning otherwise.
anyway... thanks for that info on DE and SW , I have no access to their codex's and have to lurk websites and forums for unit stats and tactics, thus you've made my life easier.

If I have time tonight I'll ponder 2 or 3 similar BASIC lists and post them up, I'll attempt to explain my perceived roles for each unit as well (just to test to see if I am learning anything)

If anyone else has various dollars and cents worth of info or help to contribute it's always appreciated.

Regards,
Walter

Building a list to take out one foe is not the best way to make a list. You don't make WH Fantasy lists to fight just Goblins and expect it to do well against Undead, Empire or Elves. Same holds true for 40k... you make well rounded all-comer lists.

Walter Fontaine wrote:Good to see others in a similar situation Menziez. Thanks for that list, I've seen very similar ideas floating around. My biggest question mark for me personally would be on the manticore though, purely as I have no idea if i have the experience yet to keep it being useful and safe.

Ties into what BlkTom was saying though, at this stage I don't know if I'm defensive or aggressive yet, it's a whole different ball game to fantasy. That info is golden though, very helpful indeed. Much appreciated.

The manticore is good with anti tank and infrantry. St 10 AP 4 ordanance barrage d3. It really depends though, best is to just play different games and maybe just do a "counts as" tanks with friends to get the feel for different play.

But your first step is to get your hands on a codex without it, its very difficult to make a list.

* edit: Spelling mistake :( *

CCS
3xMeltas' 1xFlamer ~85
PCS
3xMeltas' 1xFlamer ~65
HWS
3 x Autocannon ~75

Vets
3xMeltas' ~100
Vets
3xMeltas' ~100
Vets
3xPlasma ~115
Vets
3xPlasma ~115

Vendetta
~130
Vendetta
~130
Vendetta
~130
LRBT
~150
LRBT
~150
Griffon
~75
Griffon
~75

~= 1495

First ever 40k & IG list, rip it to shreds, be brutal.

List tactica:
2x Vendettas rush 2x squads of vets attempting to eliminate the largest perceived threat.
LRBTs' move and shoot.
CCS, PCS & HWS remain behind to shield 2x Griffons
Remaining Vendetta either stays with the defence, roams with tanks or hunts.

Thoughts?

Edit: Making it look neater & fixing points.

Heh... well, your list is illegal for starters.

To take the HWS (which is pointed wrong to boot, should be 75pts for 3x ACs), you need to take a Platoon, which consists of a PCS and at least 2 PISs.

The Vendettas are the best gunship Guard have. While rushing up to drop of Melta Vets next to vehicles to take them out also exposes the Vendetta to every close range AT weapons the enemy has, much less the ability to assault it. There is a reason why this is called a 'suicide rush' as neither are expected to survive the return fire. I rather have the Vendetta sit back with it's 3 twin linked Lascannons and pound vehicles from range, and then late game fly out to capture/contest objectives. This does require troop choices inside, but remember that those troops can not fire out of the Vendetta (or Valkyrie). Don't ask, just accept it. I actually like cheap BS 3 Flamer units for this purpose. Then if the enemy objective is in cover, defended by cover save based infantry, the flamers ignore the cover and burn them out. To do this, you just want to disembark, not Grav Chute Insertion.

Don't mix special weapons and don't leave special weapon slots empty. The backbone to Guard is the number of special weapons they can throw out there (because they have cheap ass troops). You can't split fire (except for special units Guard do not have).

I am not a fan of the Griffon just because it is pure anti-infantry. Your LRBTs are also filling that role, so just go with a 3rd LRBT or two Hydras in a squadron.

So, you need to re-do your list, but I hope this helps you in the re-write.

Thanks for the help Tom,
Forgive my ignorance though as I need some clarification

HWS Points should be fixed now, I thought I met the criteria for a platoon with my PCS and Vets already..? I don't fully understand how having a platoon effects game-play either though.

Your point on gunships I accept. Side-note: should I be running three or should I change 1 for a Valkyrie?

nub question: by special weapons are you referring to meltas flamers etc. aka do you mean each squad should be dedicated to one role/special weapon?

Griffon I wasn't sure about tactically either, just liked the idea of them.

Walter Fontaine wrote:Thanks for the help Tom,
Forgive my ignorance though as I need some clarification

HWS Points should be fixed now, I thought I met the criteria for a platoon with my PCS and Vets already..? I don't fully understand how having a platoon effects game-play either though.

This is where not having the books is hurting you, specially the codex. Vets are not part of a platoon, but are a seperate troop selection, as are Penal troops. Platoons are the third type of troop selection. You have to have at least two troop selections and at least 1 HQ choice. When you select a Platoon as a troop choice, you must take the minium of a Platoon Command Squad and 2-5 Platoon Infantry Squads. You then have the option of getting 0-5 Heavy weapon squads, 0-2 Special weapon squads, and 0-1 Conscripts.

Your point on gunships I accept. Side-note: should I be running three or should I change 1 for a Valkyrie?

Valkyrie is a good anti-infantry unit, specially with multiple Rocket pods, but I prefer AT over anti-infantry, specially when you have LRBTs.

nub question: by special weapons are you referring to meltas flamers etc. aka do you mean each squad should be dedicated to one role/special weapon?

Yes.
You should also take weapons that make best use of the BS of your troops. Most Guard (besides Vets and CCSs) are BS 3, meaning they hit what they shoot at 50% of the time. You can buy up to a Plasma gun for those BS 3 troops, but that is alot of points to spend on a weapon that will have a rough time hitting. Most I would spend is on the Melta guns for BS 3, because they effect damn near everything in the game, from armor to troops. Their only drawback is their short range, but that is a balance feature. Flamers use a template, so technically do not need to roll to hit. So if you do have BS 4 troops (like your Vets and CCS), you do not want to really waste that precious BS 4 on low end weapons or flamers.... melta guns or plasma guns are best.

My opinion is that I try to make my units as versital as possible, usally with a way to deal with Armor and Infantry. Some units I accept the fact they can not hurt AV 14 vehicles, but most transports are AV 12-10, so a Str 7 weapon like an AC can not only effect AV 12 (glance on a 5, Penetrate on a 6) but they have multiple shots (two shots) to do it with. Then I can also use the weapon for Infantry, and with such a high strength, have the chance to wound nearly all the things I hit. Missile Launcher is more expensive and has only a single shot. It is only Str 8 (Krak shot), so ends up firing on the same vehicles, just with a lower chance to hit (that BS 3 guy has a 75% chance to hit at least once with those two shots, 50% with the one shot). The anti-infanty value of it takes the BS skill out of the equation and uses a scatter dice (1/3 chance to 'Hit') and is at only Str 4. Since in 40k, your troops can be up to 2" apart, a small blast marker will only hit 2.5 of them, and wound half of that for 80% of the enemies you fight (Str 4 vs T 4). Means if you hit once with a AC your wounding the same number of troops as the ML, but the AC is cheaper. The Mortar and Heavy Bolter are both strictly anti-Infantry weapons and cost you the versitility of at least being able to effect AV 12.

Whew that took awhile to type... So anyways, I break down my units to what can effect AV 14-12 (heavy vehicles), AV 12-10 (Transports/Walkers/misc vehicles), and Infantry. Obviously stuff that can effect AV 14 can effect everything else, so consider it a snowball effect. Mech is a popular option, so being heavy anti-mech is never a bad thing.

Hope this helps.

CCS x4Meltas' ~90

PCS x4Meltas' ~70

Vendetta ~130
Vendetta ~130
Vendetta ~130

LRBT ~150
LRBT ~150
Demolisher ~165
+Heavy flamer

Vets x3plasma ~115
Vets x3plasma ~115
Vets x3Meltas' ~100
Vets x3Meltas' ~100

Inf squad x1flamer ~55 (simply filling 55 points i had left over).

1500

thoughts.

EDIT: WOOPS didn't see you replied, let me read that and then redo this list.

Have you included the chimeras in the vet squads? Or are you going to be transporting the vets in vendettas? I don't recommend foot slogging those vet squads with metlas....

Walter Fontaine wrote:CCS x4Meltas' ~90

PCS x4Meltas' ~70

Vendetta ~130
Vendetta ~130
Vendetta ~130

LRBT ~150
LRBT ~150
Demolisher ~165
+Heavy flamer

Vets x3plasma ~115
Vets x3plasma ~115
Vets x3Meltas' ~100
Vets x3Meltas' ~100

Inf squad x1flamer ~55 (simply filling 55 points i had left over).

1500

thoughts.

EDIT: WOOPS didn't see you replied, let me read that and then redo this list.

Just chiming in on you're list at last second. I personally don't like this list as a guard player, i think every thread i see of guard is this with alterations but it must work well if thats what you want.
My chiming in is for that you need minimum 2 infantry squads for an infantry platoon. This is shown on the top of the page with the "[i][u]platoon com squad 1 infantry squad2-5" bit. Hope this helps you out!

So just try and use the points for that platton command and the infantry for 125 pts? stick in maybe chimera's for a couple squads or extra armours on your vehicles. i find they've helped me many times in the past. (I would probably put a chimera for the command and a second for the last vet squad. that'll leave you 15pts for something [Don't forget about that lmbering behemoth rule too! its really cool])

Basically it's hard for veteran squads on foot to really do anything besides camp in your own deployment zone. I guess t3 5+ is pretty standard in fantasy, but it's pretty much as squishy as it gets in 40k. They're going to die for sure unless you give them transports, screen them with something or plant them in cover. You don't want to have to screen four squads, or find good cover for four squads, and chimeras bring a lot to the table for 55pts.
They have a multilaser, a heavy flamer and a big handy chimera hull. And they move 12" per turn.

Why do you want the PCS so badly? If the infantry squad (you need two btw as said) is just points filler? If 4 meltas is all you want it's cheaper and more accurate to get another CCS.

PCS was purely for the ability to issue orders. However as I tend to agree with running the vets in chimeras that would make the order issue role fairly moot yes? So I'm fine with scraping the PCS.

I'll fix up the list now.

(Side-note: I have a copy of the codex now, to tide me over until I get back from this third world country and can purchase a hard-copy.)

Edit: removed a question.

I would definetly drop the PCS and INF squad and try to free up points to mount your squads up in chimeras, possibly by removing a vendetta (guessing)

Thank God you have the Codex, as I am starting to feel like a scumbag for helping you since you don't have one. I know it sucks reading it on a computer verse a real copy, but it is something.

Haha yeah its serving me well for the moment. MUCH easier now.

My main gaming buddy has a lot of unassembled points in Dark Eldar that he has gifted himself for Christmas... so I don't have to be strict on points (upped it to 1650).

Long story short I scraped the pcs & inf squad. Put all the vets and ccs in chimeras.

My only qualm with this list is its (in my eyes) highly unoriginal, not a biggy as coming from fantasy I'm thoroughly looking forward to painting all that large armour !

Sidenote: Scouts have forwarded on intel that my buddy is fielding a lot of wracks in his list.

Walter Fontaine wrote:

My only qualm with this list is its (in my eyes) highly unoriginal...

Now you have a 'dex, you can create something different if you like

menziez wrote:

Walter Fontaine wrote:

My only qualm with this list is its (in my eyes) highly unoriginal...

Now you have a 'dex, you can create something different if you like

Yeah, with the advice given, hopefully it gives you a foundation to build on. Trust me though, nothing beats experience though, so get some games in if you can, when you can.

Yeah thanks for all the help guys, great foundation advice to build on.

Out of interest what's everyone's take on carapace armour?
My interest is purely aesthetic as I love the kasrkin models. From a tactical point of view it seems like a bit of a point sink and for competitive list should be avoided in favour of more models on the board...

Are there any solid tactics I could employ that allow me to enjoy the carapace models but still have competitive edge?

Your tactical point is right on...

Use them as STs or just suck it up and run a Vet heavy list where everyone can have Caripace. There are alot of weapons that are AP 4, but a bolter is AP 5, and there are a ton of codexs that use bolters (or worse) as the standard weapon.

You don't see alot of Vet lists of foot guard, but I could see a Vet Gunline list be really effective. Give the Sergeant a PW and sit in cover and now you have a armor save against flamers and if something ignores your armor, you can use your 4+ cover save. I could see the list with 3x Plasma guns, Grenaiders, and a Lascannon as your standard troop.

Another option is a 'gun assault' Vet ground list with a PW, Grenaiders, and 3x Melta guns & shotguns. This /could/ be a solid list, as long as you properly support it.

You can do it, it could be successful. The important thing with any list is understanding what screws you over and how to deal with it. To me, Vet guard are weak against close combat. They can't get a Commissar for Stubborn or Ld 9 and they don't have alot of troops to absorb losses so they can be easily overwhelmed and swept off the board. I would still take a PW for the Sergeant if your worried about assault, but there is little else you can do, since Guard no longer have Assault squads.