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popular question is to use no GW miniatures in GW games,but I want to know opposed way...
Do I have a right (me or anybody else) create a new fantasy game, that has nothing to do with warhammer,and allow there to use and ¨¨mix¨¨ on the battle table all 25-35 mm mniatures(for axample:GW, Scibor,Game Zone and others( in one convention, fantasy,sc fi...)). No problem with GW IP policy?( I think Mattel can,t forbid you play with barbie in other than mattel dollys scenery )... MIniatures are only toys,and if you don,t copy them ilegal,if you just buy it in shop, then the manufacturer role is finish when you leav the shop .

There have been several miniatures games over the years where the 'game' itself was just rules and you could use ANY miniatures you had to represent stuff in it.

They might have had a line of "official" minis to go with it, but they were optional and not a compulsory choice.

You can't use images of those other companies models without permission/credit - and GW is often loathe to give the former. Other companies are not so tightfisted.

I use GW minis in my Stargrunt games, for example.
Also in my Tomorrow's War games (two such rule-sets where any suitable minis may be used).

Prior to 40k, its writers had their own rulesets that also did this.

There is no global rule that states that you must only use company X's* minis with Company X's game rules (Except perhaps in Company X's stores - but they would also like you to paint their models with their paints, using their brushes and washing their brushes in their water pots).

There are various tournament rules that state that "only our stuff may be used in these games" though. Some specify the amount of modification that is allowed also (Company Y** doesn't allow ANY conversions in its tourneys, for example).

*/** Names changed to protect the not-on-trial. We both know who I'm referring to. I don't have to say it though. Being blatant is so ... uncivilised.

What means ¨¨¨You can't USE IMAGES of those other companies MODELS without permission/credit - and GW is often loathe to give the former. Other companies are not so tightfisted.¨¨..... If your sistem exist as an internet forum,and the users (or you) put in the galery pictures of battle table full with miniatures,then GW,s lawyers ll knock your door, couse on many pictures apear GW miniatures??
Thanks for your reply

It means GW don't let you use event pictures of their models (even pictures of your own purchased-from-GW models and taken with your own camera) without stating that "models by GW, used without consent" statements.

They don't send their jackbooted stormtroopers to your door. They generally start with a letter or email demanding you stop doing it. If you don't THEN they send in the troops. Their legal dogs.

"Tightfisted" means they don't like to let any aspect of "their" products out of their grasp. It also has other meanings, often in relation to inability to spend money where they have to.

Other miniatures companies are not so controlling. They even give permission for other companies to use pictures of their stuff in third-party publications.

For example: Tomorrow's War (Rulebook for futuristic combat from 15mm to 28mm by Ambush Alley). It has pictures of miniatures from Khurasan, Old Crow, Pig Iron Production, GZG in it. ALL of these companies GAVE them permission to use the pictures. ALL they wanted was a credit ("models by Khurasan, painted by xxxxx" is enough).

GW want credit stating who owns the likenesses of the images. and that you don't have permission to use them (because they won't give it to you).

great.... Thanks for your answers.
¨¨ they don't like to let any aspect of "their" products out of their grasp¨¨--- question is not what they like or not,.... The question is ¨¨what they have right and what not¨¨
If the new system rules don,t say anything that coms from GW-warhammer world,even names of characters, or names of units( more specific than ¨¨elf archers¨¨,or ¨¨dwarfs infantery with warhammers¨¨ (or better in this case battle hammers and battle axe),then theirs miniaturs, as all miniatures from others manufactures,are just a pawns on the table. avoid
naming copy
I think they can not forbid you using GW miniatures as long as you buy it legally.... If your sistem users will chois this or other manufacture,,,that depends on many factors( also manufacture marketing system.....then....GW is the bigest in the world and they should be happy or keep silent,nothing more)
More....I think there is some way to show them its place( I realy respect them for all their contribution to fantasy world,but I want they now they work for us, and not on the revers(we for them)).For example is possible to create a rules with simple pawns(very gak version,no? ) ,and then the palyers associated in internet forum start to bring new pictures with all manufactures miniatures.
The question : ¨¨can I make a scenery, fill it with diferent or no diferent,or only a little diferent manufactures miniatures painted my self ,or purchased from profesional painters,but always legally....then take nice pictures and make it form part of system presentation.....And the players,users my system have this same rrights.
This is the key.... because if the system is nice,and if I,m able to interest to it the another miniatures games players(but in my own interest only good painters and strategist),then inability to present some manufactures products as a part of my scenery,battle tables,then of course,I close busiines and go home(even if bussines is non profit)
The key question is I think(but say if you have different opinion): when the GW product stop to be something exceptional and start to be a normal(normal market produkt)- toy. And because they didn,t discovered a miniatures war games, ,thay can,t forbidd you use their minaitures as a part of your game(if yu are 100/100 sistem autor and owner.The more if you painteed it yor self(perhaps only plastic grey ,unpainted miniatures are still under GW protection??? ).
I think that very interesting topic ,and I ,ll try to develop it (just sorry couse my english ,but that I,ll improve also)
Have I permition to cite an other forum user answer,or to put here link to this??
summing up, I belive that only copy work is illegal.Never make an silicon copy of GW or others products, and never copy their books and codex.Never even copy their rules...but nothing more.
Their miniatures are just a toys,and we can do anything with it(except mentioned above) If we spended money legally .Have I right or not?
I

If you buy a product from GW and use it with other rules, you can do so to your heart's content. A GW store probably won't let you use their tables for such an endeavor, but no further effort to stop you will be taken.

Now if you release a product and use other people's miniatures in your photographs, you may or may not have an issue. It's sort of a grey area and varies a lot by

I have Future War Commander (a game in the same scale as GW's Epic) and it has renamed army lists in the back for all of GW's Epic armies, but the pictures they chose only manufacturer's who wanted to cooperate as why should they show off miniatures from GW?

Play whatever rules you want with whatever miniatures you want. If you ever publish a for profit rules set, use miniatures from friendly companies and don't advertise GW products in them and you are golden.

Ok,thanks....BUt...
If we create some new sistem,of course ,probably the most important part of its presentation (if not the only one) ,we put in internet.Now..... We need(not only of course), high level visual presentation to interest anybody to this sistem. Ok,I can perform it,I have required skills level,and also I know something oobout photografy,macro,micro ,and others. What you mean ¨¨use miniatures from friendly companies and don't advertise GW products in them and you are golden¨¨ ....Why have I to ask others companies if they are ¨¨friendly¨¨ or not??? Dos anybody who has a restaurant ,ask a cutlery manufacture,if they are friendly with is ¨¨menu¨¨ or not?? Even if the spoon apear clearly in visual marketing of his restaurant??The menu he has to prepare him self,or buy some licency,but spoon he just buy in some store,no??
I can of course present the rules with few miniatures iconografy(even I can make my self some few miniatures,or prepare all scene in 3d graphic program),,I can also use a simple pawns to represent the system of rules,but in continuation comms abundant material presented by my sistem players in my sistem forum,web site,gallery.....And then what??have still a GW or other manufacture a right to complain and attack a single players ,couse they like this sistem and put pictures with battle tables, maquets,and minaitures(more or less from (for example )GW)?????

chromedog wrote:There have been several miniatures games over the years where the 'game' itself was just rules and you could use ANY miniatures you had to represent stuff in it.

They might have had a line of "official" minis to go with it, but they were optional and not a compulsory choice.

I use GW minis in my Stargrunt games, for example.
Also in my Tomorrow's War games (two such rule-sets where any suitable minis may be used).

I use GW (and other) minis with my favorite 28mm system, Warengine (Shockforce). It had its own fluff and minis...but is plainly stated that the rules may be used with any minis or setting.

It's pretty simple. The following rules/guidelines will explain.

1)Individual gamers can use your GW figs to play whatever game you want. They can blog, forum post, etc to their hearts content as long as it is not for financial gain.

2)As soon as a company uses pictures containing GW figs in their products advertising, or promotions, GW will (rightfully) sue the pants off them.

3)Reporting on an event using GW models for non GW games is ok as long as it's a third party doing the reporting. As soon as the reporting comes from the company making the non-GW rules and/or can be construed as benefiting the company, see rule #2 for the results.

Conclusion.
There is no reason that a company has to use GW models to make a great looking game or promotion. For a great example of this, see the recently released "Tomorrow's War" gamebook. Excellent production values and loads of pics of excellent models. None of which were GW, and AFAIK, all of which were allowed use for free by their makers as free advertising.

On a more personal note, My club frequently uses GW models in our games of WarEngine/Shockforce, Tomorrow's War and Wastelands, and I just finished a game of Warpath this week using nothing but 40k models. It's your game, do it your way, but just know that as soon as you try to make any kind of profit or gain from GW IP, the lawyers will come knocking.

I don't see why not, as long as that company doesn't show images of GW models being used in their game. But even then, as long as the game company isn't claiming to own the models, I don't see anything wrong with it. I've seen modelling supplies with GW models for examples on them before.

GW isn't the fun police, lol. You paid for the model, you can do whatever you want with it

Eilif wrote:
¨¨...There is no reason that a company has to use GW models¨¨....there are no reason to use figs of others manufactures also....GW is only one of them, no excepcional one....The reason is,that we want use all figs that we like,and do not use figs that we don,t like( in most of cases visualy probably)
¨¨...and/or can be construed as benefiting the company¨----super !!! what means that????
Ok,which version is correct then???
some of you(not only on this forum) say,that is absolutly llegaly as long as we inform,that figs on the pictures are not manufactured by sistem autor/company . And probably should be needed allow to use all manufactures figs in some sort of scales(f.e 25-35 mm) and in required world convention(fantasy/sc fi),without indicate some manufacture as athe right one.
Others belivs,that even this actitud givn,t rights to put own pictures in official web sites,and rools books( I refer to internet materials only)
Where is the true??
I belive,that correct way is to buy figs legal ,and if we create some sistem, avoid similaritys( ofcourse ,nobody can forbid yoy use elfs,dwarfs, and others stafs like this,but all the stafs,that for example GW discoverd(that is good area to investigate)...you should avoid.
My opinion is ,miniatures after you buy it have nothing to do with GW if you paint it without use a GW pianting scheme. Perhaps they could still knock your door,if the miniatures they sell, would be availaible free or almost free as an appendix for GW games. ( imagine, if they put on the market some sort of miniatures, free, as an appendix for some WH edition(but whitout selling this minaitures like others GW figs),and they say :this model is exclusive WH figs,forbiden use in others sistem,couse we gift it free-----that would be interesting question.....).But That,s no this case
They have to understand,that they are only another product on the market, and possibility to play with theirs figs GW games is only option that the players have after they buy figs. Only one way ,llegaly way for GW (for example) to keep the players by them is to answer to player comunity needs.
They have to understand, that after manufacture some product, this product form/constitute part of the market.
The question is then: when I perform terrain model(table top or just ¨¨landscape¨¨ ), is that (or not) some work of art( low or high quality)????,more if I conect it with some fantasy story.Who then is the owner of this?me or manufacture ,that made some part of components of this ¨¨work of art¨¨(components that I bought) ?? If I put pictures with different manufactures figs and awsome landscape,as a part of instructions,or in gallery of my sistem.....waht then is important??who tuk some parts of this landscape out of the silicon form,or who paid this components,and then spent hours transforming it in small artworks painting it??? (and if the painter is low quality,then all sistem falls down inmediatly probably )


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there we are...in the forest again

Heed the words of what people have said here, companies, and not necessarily Games Workshop, may take offence at you using their products to promote your own.

But without any offence meant to those that have offered advice, I think that if you are seriously planning on releasing a system for profit and intend on using photographs of models made by a company that has not given you express permission to use them, you really needs to speak to a lawyer, or at the least a publisher who knows the industry, not an internet forum.

Ugavine wrote:Heed the words of what people have said here, companies, and not necessarily Games Workshop, may take offence at you using their products to promote your own.

But without any offence meant to those that have offered advice, I think that if you are seriously planning on releasing a system for profit and intend on using photographs of models made by a company that has not given you express permission to use them, you really needs to speak to a lawyer, or at the least a publisher who knows the industry, not an internet forum.

Yes, this, 100x.

Also, the laws / regulations can vary greatly between countries. This is an international forum, so any responses may or may not actually be valid for you.

That said, there is no way that GW can dictate, to me, how I use the product I bought from them in my personal time and space. Where it gets grey is when this sort of activity gets documented, and how that documentation is used. That use, as we see here, not as easy to pin down as we would like.

Keep in mind, too in the US, we have a couple of internet use laws floating around that may change all of this, if one passes. I'm not internet laws guru, but it sounds bad and very confusing.

thanks,I,ll heed their words. But even if I alredy in contact with lawyers,that is no reason to close this verry interesting discussion here . I can,t give you solution in this moment, Is important all players, interested in this thread express their opinion here.I,ll tell you why in the future....tthen....I,ll just try to keep this thread a life couse ,I see Are 2 verry diferrents points of view....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Link to other version of this discussion I put this same thread on another forum i hop that,s not forbiden ,but please,read there,and answer here( any one forum needs its own oxigen to life).this same I,ll put there refering to discussion here(if its forbidden,even I see no grounds for it, just inform me please,mr moderator,I have no bad intentions). The problem is,that some part of the users say clearly-¨¨ ïs legall,just inform,you are not miniatures model(not about painting) autor ..¨¨ Others wrote: ¨¨ don,t do it!!! is forbiden,Gw a,d others have right to their figs even after you eat it and ....¨¨does not matter,you boght miniatures by their price in manufacture strore or not¨¨here the link :
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328602

As a guideline, free legal advice is worth what you pay for it.

elkuku wrote:

Eilif wrote:
¨¨...There is no reason that a company has to use GW models

¨¨....there are no reason to use figs of others manufactures also....GW is only one of them, no excepcional one....The reason is,that we want use all figs that we like,and do not use figs that we don,t like( in most of cases visualy probably)

¨¨...and/or can be construed as benefiting the company

¨----super !!! what means that????

I'm not totally sure what you're asking here (you need to learn to use the "quote" feature when posting) what I mean by "can be construed as beneifiting the company" is that if there is any way that GW could possibly suggest to a court that you are using their imagery in a way that benefits yourself, they will sue you, and might win.

Basically the rule for using anyone elses imagery, models, etc in a game you are producing is this.

Get permission or get ready to get sued.

As I said before, private individuals not promoting a product of their own can often get away with using other companies IP without permission (sometimes by adding a disclaimer), on a blog or website, but for companies promoting a product see my statement above (the one in bold)

Eilif wrote:

elkuku wrote:

Eilif wrote:
¨¨...There is no reason that a company has to use GW models

¨¨....there are no reason to use figs of others manufactures also....GW is only one of them, no excepcional one....The reason is,that we want use all figs that we like,and do not use figs that we don,t like( in most of cases visualy probably)

¨¨...and/or can be construed as benefiting the company

¨----super !!! what means that????

I'm not totally sure what you're asking here (you need to learn to use the "quote" feature when posting) what I mean by "can be construed as beneifiting the company" is that if there is any way that GW could possibly suggest to a court that you are using their imagery in a way that benefits yourself, they will sue you, and might win.

Basically the rule for using anyone elses imagery, models, etc in a game you are producing is this.

Get permission or get ready to get sued.

As I said before, private individuals not promoting a product of their own can often get away with using other companies IP without permission (sometimes by adding a disclaimer), on a blog or website, but for companies promoting a product see my statement above (the one in bold)

( referring to ¨quote¨¨ problem ) Did you mean like that?? No problem,sorry if my ¨¨traditional¨¨ quote system was wrong ...
I,m not a company, neither an enterprise. Just keep in mind,that even simple sistem rules autor is its Copy right owner,and even some non profit activity ,after time can transform in profit,or low profit..Otherwise even non profit can give you many profits (no money,but for example many system -users...and this is nowadays also some profit...sometimes bigger than money )....And of course the fama (if your system has a success... naturally if not....then you stay with a lot of frustration )
And what if ,as I said above, I don,t use any picture in my internet rules introduction. Just the players,members,users will do it??

We try to determine where is the line,that the miniatures manufactures have no right to cross(and if there exist some line...maby not..). Many this ,and others forums members,said that is only needed to mention,that the game rules autor is not miniatures manufacturer (and that sugest ,he can be some company,becouse if not,then is very clear he doesn,t manufact fiigs---I thinkk that,s logic)..... Question is about required ways to mention(credit) figs manufacturer.
Anyway there are many doubts,and even ,of course I,ll heed your words,thank for them,,,,,,that,s no reason to leav other options without investigate them.
Keep in mind,thhat any one product after been introducted into the market,has to abide by the rules....and as the history shows,many big enterprises internal rules shown to be in contradiction with standards. Of course, usually there is no chance to show it ,without big money...






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Balance wrote:As a guideline, free legal advice is worth what you pay for it.

heh....I pay my lawyers and my miniatures...

The only thing I can think of that GW would be able to claim would be endorsement. That is, when you show people playing your game using GW models it creates the false impression that your game is sanctioned by GW.

I think this would be an easy claim to defeat by including a disclaimer such as: "Use of Games Workshop miniatures does not imply endorsement of this product by Games Workshop."

Otherwise, they're your models, you have the right to display them however you want, which (presumably) includes photographing them and displaying those photographs.

I have a handful of fantasy GW orks that I use in my D&D games.

If I created a game system I would use what figures I had to hand to playtest and to introduce the rules to other people.

If I were to promote my game syse to a wider audience I would either have my own sculpts, scrathcbuild my own stuff or seek out miniatures that best represnt my table top vision.
There are plenty of companies which produce figures for Sci fi, Fantasy, Modern, Historical eras etc that are independent of any established imaginary worlds and these companies are happy to allow you to use their products. They are mostly generic products.

I would not use any figures which are associated with an existing brand. Be they GW, PP, Urban Mammoth or Mantic to name a few. For example GW and PP have models that have too obvious an aesthetic related to their brands. I wouldnt use Space Marines to represnt heavily armopured space troopers nor would I use warjacks to represnt robots or walkers.

I would seek permision from any manufacturer to use their miniatures in any promotional material. be it a blog, rulebook, Website etc.

This is all failry subjective. If other people want to play their games with GW PP or cardboard cutouts of Tony the Tiger and post up images then they should go for it. Its their gubbins.

Biccat has it right that a disclaimer can be put up should anyone use other companies minis.

Ultimately you need to speak with a lawyer in your own country. Remember, GW sends out Cease and Desist orders over anything that violates their policies. That does NOT mean that the company receiving the C&D is breaking any laws. Most companies simply bow to the will of GW because fighting the case in court costs more money than they have.

Short answer: Use other models and you won't have a problem. If you must use GW models, consult a lawyer first.