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I like Pathfinders, for the objective camping. But most of the time I go for 5-man Dire Avenger squads without Exarchs running around in Holo-field Falcons, or Wave Serpents.

severedblue wrote:At least Eldar have five troop choices - necrons have two, grey knights have two, and for BA, all the DC ones are not scoring.



For Eldar, 5 man DA squads in tanks and guardian jetbikes being the strongest , so I don't see any short straws...

Eldar have 4, Pathfinders are an upgrade to rangers, but yeah, it is better to things like Necrons and BA. Grey Knights don't seem to have the problem as much though due to Grand Strategy, or whatever that Grand Master/Draigo special rule is to allow you to make units scoring.

I think the main problem with Eldar though as far as force org is concerned is that most of their good units are tied up in the elites section

severedblue wrote:My 5 tropps were

Wraithguard can count as troops, but you need 10 of them and they're expensive in models and in points, so that's impractical. There are funny lists built around them though (get 10, put Eldrad and Karandras, +conceal warlock , then hide three metal dreadnaughts behind it)

Ah yes, forgot about those guys, good point.

severedblue wrote:Eldar elites actually are not really great...

Fire Dragons are gold, many armies would give their left arm for a squad of mass meltas.

Harlequins are a bit expensive but are good value in other ways, particularly the Shadowseer's Veil of Tears and being able to use the flip belts.

But neithers the rest of the codex, if you compare it to things like the Eldar fast attack slots, it is much better.

Striking Scorpions are ok for against horde armies, and are decent for things like capture and control as the fact that they can outflank with 3+ armour allows them to pummell most deckchair units, but for anything else, yeah not great.

Like you said, Fire Dragons are great, enough said.

Wraithguard used to be pretty good, you have to remember that this is a codex written mid-way through 4th edition, and for a while taking lots of wriathguard was a moderately popular choice, for 35 points you can get a T6 3+ save warrior with fearless, although that warlock is all but mandatory.

I actually really like Howling banshees, for 16 points you get a power weapon that strikes with 3 attacks at initiative 10 in the first round of a combat, with the possibility of reducing your opponent to WS1. Yes, they are fragile, but if you stuck them in a Wave Serpent and then jumped them out straight into a combat they can be brutal, but you do need to give the exarch an executioner simply for the added punch.

Harlequins, yeah maybe a little over-costed, but this is what happens when a codex gets older, plus you are right about needing to take a shadowseer, this saves you a lot of points as it means that you don't need to get a wave serpent in order to avoid being shot.

severedblue wrote:That's why I don't like pathfinders. They rely on cover, they are static, and their sniper rifles only hit infantry squads reliably with a low volume of fire, which is exacerbated by being in a mech environment. On top of that, they get munched in CC. At best they are a distraction.

Which oddly enough is why I like pathfinders/rangers. You don't take them for their sniper rifles, and so with normal rangers, you stick an objective in cover, move your pathfinders onto it, and go to ground with them, getting a 2+ cover save in most cases, for only 85pts, as a deckchair unit they become pretty difficult to shift without getting close to them, and with all of the shenanigans going on around your opponent, when they think about target priority, the rangers are not at the top of the list straight away.

severedblue wrote:

Rampage wrote:But neithers the rest of the codex, if you compare it to things like the Eldar fast attack slots, it is much better.

I think the weakness is that Eldar units are not "generally good" or "must take"

farseer powers (esp on a jetbike). then fire dragons are a must take in mech

Eh, but didn't you just state that Eldar units aren't must take?

I will agree that there are very few Eldar units that you need to take if you aren't building an optimum list, but for Eldar, there is really only one optimum build, and that is the Mechdar list. So if you want the optimum build, then the DA, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons and the Farseer/Eldrad all become things that you will have to take.

severedblue wrote:dire avengers are the best troop choice overall (even if you just leave them as 5 men min in a transport), and they both can be put in wave serpents, expensive but fast and resiliant.

Completely agree, I actually find that leaving them as a bog-standard 5-man squad is best, as the main reason that they are there is to be scoring.

severedblue wrote:Eldar heavy support comes next... falcons and fire prisms in one or more combinations. Or maybe war walkers for massed fire.

Yeah, I like my Scatter laser walkers.

severedblue wrote:Banshees have GEQ strength and toughness, for example, so other than their weapons ignoring armour save they need guide / doom to make up for their lack of MEQ str and toughness.

Mathammer time, squad of 10 Marines are charged by a squad of 6 banshees including an Exarch with an Executioner. Banshees strike first with 3 attacks each (base + dual CC weapons + Charge) total of 15 ignoring Exarch, marines pass War Shout test, likely 7-8 attacks hit, 2-3 wound, Exarch has 4 attacks, 2-3 hit 1-2 wounds, so about 4 wounds, 6 marines hit back, 3 hit 2 wound, 1 is saved, so 1 wound in total, banshees win combat by 3. Ok yeah, so maybe not amazing without doom, but still not bad.

severedblue wrote:If the unit was a better unit, it would be more useful in a min/max competitive list. When they revise the codex, hopefully they making languishing units, such as the FA choices, more viable.

I hope so too, seeing as I already own Shinging Spears and Swooping Hawks

severedblue wrote:

Rampage wrote:
Striking Scorpions are ok for against horde armies, and are decent for things like capture and control as the fact that they can outflank with 3+ armour allows them to pummell most deckchair units, but for anything else, yeah not great.

Footdar maybe. But if you've got a mech list with the fastest / very resiliant tanks in the game, why not go flat out instead? Then you don't have to take scorpions which are only situationally good at hordes and deckchairs. If they were good against MCs, LRs or MEQ assault units, maybe they'd have a better place.

Well yeah, but what if you don't want to make the optimum build, just something that's reasonably effective and fun to play, the OP never said anything about creating the optimum build.

severedblue wrote:

Rampage wrote:
if you stuck them in a Wave Serpent and then jumped them out straight into a combat they can be brutal

... the problem being WS aren't open topped, so the banshees can't charge the turn they disembark. You have to either use a move like the dragonfish, or use them as a counter-charge deterrent. That's the problem with playing a game of chess, where you need two moves to pin and not one move to pin, two moves to pin being too slow. Disembark and assault have to be on separate turns, so that really kills the speed that banshees are meant to be known for, on top of that requiring Doom to do real damage to MEQ units that rely on the armour save. Plus getting caught in the open means their less-than-MEQ armour save and T3 affords them being shredded by machine guns or pie plates. With all these disadvantages, I'd rather field 3 termagants instead at 5 points each.

I know, but if you park your Wave Serpent relatively nearby to the unit that you want to charge, and then in the next turn, jumping your banshees out before their transport moves, fleeting in case the target unit has tried to move away, and then assaulting, then it can work reasonably well. But again, this is not meant for the optimum build, because it is not a particularly reliable plan. You may well prefer to field 3 termagants, but the fact that they aren't in the Eldar codex does sort of get in the way of this plan.

severedblue wrote:

Rampage wrote:
Harlequins, yeah maybe a little over-costed, but this is what happens when a codex gets older, plus you are right about needing to take a shadowseer,

It being overcosted isn't because it's an "old codex". Harlequins are just pricey in general, they cost the exact same in the brand new DE codex

Good point, forgot about that.

severedblue wrote:Harlequins work best as an elite disruption unit- they ignore terrain and the shaowseer makes the unit irritating to shoot at. An expensive disruption unit that you are giving up a fire dragon elite slot to field.

Which is exactly the point that I made earlier about many of the good Eldar units all being stock in the elites section in the force org.

severedblue wrote:

Rampage wrote:
You don't take them for their sniper rifles, and so with normal rangers, you stick an objective in cover,

85 points for a unit where you don't use the rifles? Instead you could put those 85 points into another Fire Dragon MSU. You already understand the merits of a DA MSU unit in a Falcon that can actually use its heavy weapon effectively in the back field, can maneuver (you only need to be next to the objective on the last turn to claim it, yeah?) and can't be munched like a deckchair by units with flamers or outflanking CC units.

Alternatively, you could take Pathfinders, still use the rifles and still get the 2+ cover. This is probably going to sound really naive here but it's 85pts for a near guarenteed objective. Your oppenent is going to have a really hard time shifting them at range due to the 2+ cover and all of the other things that are going around causing damage that they need to deal with, and they'll struggle to get up close to them due to all of the other stuff that is going on.

You are absolutely spot on when you say that they aren't a good choice in the DA MSU list, and I completely agree with you, but if you are not building that list and you want something fun yet reasonably effective then rangers can at least do the job.

I think that the odd thing is that we both agree on what makes a good Eldar list, all I'm trying to say is that some units can be good in a fun setting, just not an optimum one.

Yeah, I suppose living in Australia you do especially have to make your money go further what with the especially ludacris prices that you guys have to deal with.

When I read my statement back about the elites, the banshees and the scorpions I didn't really make it there clear, sorry about that my bad. You're dead on about the Banshees though, I mean they can munch Incubi but that's only really because of their T3 and the advantage the Banshees have in initiative, the second you hit T4 you're gonna need doom. I think that if they just had furious charge they would become a lot better.