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"All monsters in the same army as throgg may use his leadership as if he were the army general and, if they are within 12" of him, may reroll breaktests"

This is part of Throggs entry and the way I read it he has a infinite leadership as it then gives a range for his second ability. The reason for the general clause is because this is the same book that has pandemonium.

So what does dakka think, does Throgg have a infinite leadership bubble for his friends?

Johnny-Crass wrote:"All monsters in the same army as throgg may use his leadership as if he were the army general and, if they are within 12" of him, may reroll breaktests"

That means it's only 12" since that's the range of the general's LD.

I think it means that all monsters in the army can use his leadership no matter where he is, AND if hes within twelve inches they also get to reroll their breaktests

infinite_six wrote:I think it means that all monsters in the army can use his leadership no matter where he is, AND if hes within twelve inches they also get to reroll their breaktests

"As if he were the Army General."

So Army Generals extend their Ld in an infinite range then?

Johnny-Crass wrote:The reason for the general clause is because this is the same book that has pandemonium.

Could you explain what you mean by that? Pandemonium works against throgg just like against any character, right? I had it used against me in my last tournament game... probably the most vicious spell I've faced against my troll army!

About the OP, I believe the wording means he has a 12" bubble... it really never occurred to me to read it as "infinite". I think "as if he were the army general" is the key phrase limiting it to a normal general's inspiring presence range.

I use Pand as a way of showing why they have to call what he does "like the army general"

And what exactly do they need to clarify? The "Army General" does 3 things: You have to have one, you get +100pts for killing him, and he has the Inspiring Presence rule.

Throgg's rule rather clearly suggests it's the Inspiring Presence thing Throgg has. Unless you're suggesting that if your army includes monsters/trolls/etc, you must have Throgg an he gives and extra +100pts to the opponent when killed.

I have always read it as infinite, but that is based on the fact that the 12" inch qualifier is gramatically only modifying the breakcheck rerolls.
However, I hadn't considered that the generals ld bubble would have an inherent limit. It just seems strange that gw would remind you of one 12" range and ignore another in the same sentance... I would think the rule would read, "if a monster is within 12" of throgg it may use his leadership and reroll break checks," if that was what the intent was, bit gw isn't known for clairity

But they can't simply "use his leadership". They use his leadership only at times when they could use a general's leadership. I guess they wanted to make that clear.

Dunwich wrote:But they can't simply "use his leadership". They use his leadership only at times when they could use a general's leadership. I guess they wanted to make that clear.

That was my take on it. However, I'm surprised by how many folks read it as infinite... and can certainly see how it could be read that way.

Even if it was a 50/50 split / really ambiguous reading, I'd play mine as a 12" bubble without a clarification from a FAQ telling me otherwise... it'd be Really powerful for him to have infinite range. And fantastic . But, the folks I've seen locally all played it as 12", so I'll stick to that.

mikhaila runs some large tournaments and owns an awesome old-school Throgg army, I'll also ask him how he reads/plays it (I believe it's 12", since that's how I've played it in his events, but I've never asked him since I hadn't thought of it).

keep in mind that this was written in 7th.

ive always read this as 12" just like the general, IF there was someway to make him a large target OR mount him on a large monster etc... then he would get an 18" leadership with 12" for the re-roll.

"All monsters in the same army as throgg may use his leadership as if he were the army general and...

This is the first part of the rule. Looking at just this part, it tells you that monsters may use Throggs leadership as if he was the general.
-If the general is within 12" of a monster, they use his leadership.
-If a general is further than 12" from a monster, you can't use the generals leadership.

This limits the range of his leadership bubble, in the exact way it limits a generals leadership bubble.

The only possible way to think Throgg has an infinite range for leadership, is if you totally ignore ..as if he were the armies general".

mikhaila wrote:"All monsters in the same army as throgg may use his leadership as if he were the army general and...

This is the first part of the rule. Looking at just this part, it tells you that monsters may use Throggs leadership as if he was the general.
-If the general is within 12" of a monster, they use his leadership.
-If a general is further than 12" from a monster, you can't use the generals leadership.

This limits the range of his leadership bubble, in the exact way it limits a generals leadership bubble.

The only possible way to think Throgg has an infinite range for leadership, is if you totally ignore ..as if he were the armies general".

Sir, since you don't seem to be able to view the other side, let me elaborate.
"All monsters in the same army as throgg may use his leadership as if he were the army general"
This does NOT say anything about any ranges at all.
The only way one could ASSUME a 12" range was implyed, is if they also ASSUMED this rule gave Throgg the Inspiring Presence ability, which the 12" range is attached to.
It clearly does NOT give him the Inspiring Presence rule.
Because this statement's only qualifier is "all monsters in the army", it makes logical and grammatical sense to think it affects all monsters in the army
It is also strongly within the framers intent seeing as they distinctly chose to seperate it, via the conjunction "and,", from another ability which is the BSB ability, which has a 12" bubble.
The ONLY possible concession that could be made is in regards to "as if he were the army general" which could be interperated in two distinct ways:
1. It was used in order to say, in an longer, harder to write and print, more difficult way to understand way that the entire sentance could be read as "Throgg has the Inspiring Presence ability, which only affects Monsters." Unlikely, even by GWs standards. No one goes that far out of their way to imply a specific, already named, rule is included.
2. It completes the first statement, as "All monsters in the army may use throggs leadership" has no deliniation as what would happen if you had a shaggoth or giant which had a higher leadership than throgg. More likely.
So that is a possible, way to think it affected all monsters in the army.
As Ghandi said, " in order to achieve the true goal, one must detach his ego from it." I don't care. I can see it as powerfulish as infinite... I really only considered my poor warhounds finally having a good chance to rally, but not much past that... If y'all think it would be too powerful, I can see that as well... But really... Ogres have ld 7/8 across the board... What's the big problem with trolls doing the same?

Sir, since you don't seem to be able to view the other side, let me elaborate.

I can see the arguement, I just fail to see it as a valid arguement. Your eleaborations don't shift my opinion, sorry.

What's the big problem with trolls doing the same?

I actually have no problem with it, if it was legal. I have over 3000 points of converted and painted Trolls for my Throgg army.

It is also strongly within the framers intent seeing as they distinctly chose to seperate

Intent? Or your opinion of their intent?

But the point has been made that Throgg does not have the Inspiring Presence rule, thus his bubble is not limited to the 12"

Johnny-Crass wrote:But the point has been made that Throgg does not have the Inspiring Presence rule, thus his bubble is not limited to the 12"

"as if he were the General" = Inspiring Prescence rule. In early editions there was no IP rule, it was just part of the rules for an Army General.

The armies general comes with the rule, and it's what gives them the bubble. Without the IP rule, a general would have no bubble. If you try to say Throgg does not have IP, then his bubble = 0", not 12".

Since you seem dwarvenly on the subject, I will offer to budge first. I will gladly agree with the bubble arguement if anyone can offer a situation where a monster would be inside the inspiring presence range but outside the bsb range, in order to neccessitate the ,"AND if it is within 12," clause. Otherwise, the arguement is clearly flawed be choosing to ignore portions of the written rules in order to accomidate assumptions about how the rules should work.
All IMO.

:edit: more to the point, the IF should be capitalized in the rule quote, as it technically is the opperator that suggests there is a situation where a monster would be able to use throggs leadership but not his breakcheck reroll

Since you seem dwarvenly on the subject

Sir, since you don't seem to be able to view the other side, let me elaborate.

Please don't start your posts with stuff like this. Argue the rules, don't start by tossing barbs at other people.

On your arguement, please rephase what you are trying to say. The AND if it is within 12," clause gives Throgg an ability only normally got by being near a BSB, and has nothing to do with a generals ability. If they didn't add that part in, he wouldn't have the ability to allow monsters to re-roll break checks at all.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, but I call a spade a spade. You claimed you couldn't see any other side, so I offered you one. You said that you could see no logic is something that is logically sound and wouldn't consider swaying your opinion, which is dwarfy to me. Regardless, I will gladly refrain from friendly banter in the future and get right to business.

in Logic there are concepts called "if/then" statements, and these have two possible outcomes: Either the "if" condition is satisfied or it isn't. This is usually diagrammed on a Truth Table, in order to determine all possible outcomes of the statement. A simple one is "if it's raining then I will go to the movies." If the first part (called the antecedent) is true, then the second part (the concequent) will also be true. With that knowledge let's reasses the rule: which is two such "if/then" statements combined by the word "and" which happens to have a specific function in logic called conjunction. In order for a statement with a conjunction to be logically true, BOTH statements must be found to be true.
You correctly assessed that the 12" antecedent only affects the bsb ability.
So we have two non-conflicting statements "If a monster* is in throggs army then they may use his leadership as if he were general."
AND
"if a monster* is within 12 inches it may reroll breakchecks".
I am stating that the inclusion of the conjunction and a second antecedent indicates that the writer anticipated situations where both antecedents would not be met, otherwise both consequents would be linked to a single antecedent. Under your interpretation, this is impossible. In logic if it is impossible for something to be different, you don't waste the time of placing phantom conjunctions within the statement, as they serve no purpose.
So from a purely logical point of view, a sound conclusion that can accomidate this understanding is that the initial rule does not have a range implied to the first consequent (and certainly none is written in black and white), ergo allowing the conjunction to function.

If that explination has no impact I'll dwarvenly bow out of this debate most of the people that would benefit from this are the ones opposed. Why not take the paragraph to your Logic prof and ask someone you respect, but feel is unbiased? You might find that you should be better off than you thought.

I have read it as 12 inches.

Still do.

Kiwidru wrote:Sorry, didn't mean to offend, but I call a spade a spade. You claimed you couldn't see any other side, so I offered you one. You said that you could see no logic is something that is logically sound and wouldn't consider swaying your opinion, which is dwarfy to me. Regardless, I will gladly refrain from friendly banter in the future and get right to business.

Fine, I'll call a Spade a Spade as well. If you don't mean to offend, don't repeat the statement and justify it. At that point, I quite listening to a thing you say. Not worth the effort of reading anything further if you can't be polite in your arguements. Doesn't really matter to me in the end, as no GT is going to let Throgg have an infinite range, which answers the question for Mr. RItides at least.

I'm sorry for calling you "Sir" and a made up word "dwarfy", I didn't think that would distract from the points I was making.

Kiwidru, you sounded condescending, which is even more of a problem when your interpretation is incorrect.

Yep, very condescending. Not a good way to deal with a thread.

No, he does nto have an infinite range. the "and" is there to give him an additional ability. "as if..army general" gives him the associated rule for a General which includes IP, and without the "as if" would indeed be unlimited - except it isnt.

So to summarise: 12" range on IP, thats it

Just fyi, I PM'ed mikhaila to direct him to this thread, as he has had an amazingly converted Throgg army for a long time and runs fantasy tournaments often, and I thought he would have a perspective on why the various clauses might have been included, since this book was not written in the current 8th edition of fantasy.

Didn't think it'd get this way- he really is someone to listen to, as a TO who runs GT-level events. Not that that makes his opinion more valid, but it can give you an indication of what the likely interpretation will be in a tournament. I'd never heard it interpreted the other way, but like I said once the issue was brought up I can totally see how people would have read it that way... I just think it's clear that that is not defensible RAW.

Kiwidru, you have to admit that your argument is interpreting the intention of the rules quite a bit- as you are relying on reasons why the 12" statement was included for the BSB ability and not the general (easy answer: different edition). The fact is, in 8th edition this part: "may use his leadership as if he were the army general" can only give the ability to share the general's leadership in a 12" circle, unless Throgg were mounted on a monster or the like and could give it in an 18" circle.

You have to add rules or go off the intent of rules to make it anything else, and that would not be allowed in an event... it has to be the rules-as-written, which means he shares his leadership like a general, i.e. in a 12" range.

But, regardless, I hope all of us Throgg-players can call this a good learning experience or whatnot... had no idea there were so many of us on Dakka

mikhaila wrote:"All monsters in the same army as throgg may use his leadership as if he were the army general and...

The only possible way to think Throgg has an infinite range for leadership, is if you totally ignore ..as if he were the armies general".

I can't see how anyone can honestly doubt this interpretation. I mean, I know English isn't everyone's first language, and I got no idea what it says in the Norwegian version of the BRB (but I'm betting it has those weird o's with / through them). But I swear, sometimes the stuff that comes up here is very odd.

The only way one could ASSUME a 12" range was implyed, is if they also ASSUMED this rule gave Throgg the Inspiring Presence ability, which the 12" range is attached to.
It clearly does NOT give him the Inspiring Presence rule.

Because they did not travel forward time, realize a rule called Inspiring Presence would be created, and then add it into an Army Book and confuse everyone with exact rules that didn't exist anywhere else yet.

They were smart and said, hey, whatever a general does, he does that. Which made it possible for this army book to stay valid in 7th, 8th, 9th, 23rd edition when Genereral's Inspiring Presence becomes Prancing Punching and extends in a 14.4" range. The fact that army books can still be used WELL into newer versions is because they reference so many generic terms from the BRB. If every army book had every rule down to the inch, you wouldn't need a BRB.