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Hello head scratchers! Lend me your pencils... (its behind your ear)

This may be a "Tactics" question but I wanted to LOOK at your lists that you might come up with.

My question: Given a "True Tide" ork list is it mathematically plausable to defeat it in 5 turns.

Now, this may be a fairly straight forward answer for you experienced folks to gestalt but I'm more curious about mega anti-horde a$$ kickers at this point level and the math which I will try to game out on Vassal, pen and paper. So your limit is 1670 to be tight or 1700 to be loose. My Wolf colleague said Vanilla Mech IG with FRFSRF would own them. I'm not so sure. I mean we are talking 182 models here with lots of 5+ and 4+ cover. Also I could trim the fat even further by taking away the rockits and putting in Big Shootas, which could bring the total down to 1580. Or even further by replacing special weapons with boyz only (1490 points).

Here's the simple True Tide:
Total points: 1670

HQ:
BM w/KFF x2

Troops:
26 Boyz, 3 Rokit Boyz, 1 Nob PK/BP
26 Boyz, 3 Rokit Boyz, 1 Nob PK/BP
26 Boyz, 3 Rokit Boyz, 1 Nob PK/BP
26 Boyz, 3 Rokit Boyz, 1 Nob PK/BP
26 Boyz, 3 Rokit Boyz, 1 Nob PK/BP
26 Boyz, 3 Rokit Boyz, 1 Nob PK/BP

If this should be in tactics my apologies. I'd be curious about your opinion of sluggas v shootas in this list and whether or not to super limit the opponent with all boyz and a nobz (ie no rokits or big shootas). For all footy, I think shootaswould be best with their 18" range and 348 (assuming 29 boyz per mob), S4 shots. It's pretty generic, I know, but I was curious about your opinion. I would probably go mad painting the 100 orks I would need anyway so I'm not sure I'll do it quite yet. I value my sanity.

Thanks,
Dr. G

Answer: I don't think so, but purifier-spam grey knights backed with dreadknights and heavy incernators would be the approach I'd take if I had to. With a vindicare assassin.

Heavy incinerators wound on 2s and ignore cover. And, dreadknights are hard for orks if you can remove the nobs with the vindicare. If the dreadknights can incinerate a bunch and tie the boyz down in combats, the purifiers can clean up with cleansing flame and watch as either No Retreat wounds take their toll or the boyz get swept, or run off the table.

First problem, you say "defeat". In the case of this list, I think what you're meaning is "table".

I think there are lots of lists that could defeat a green tide army, specially in only 5 turns.

However, if we are referring to tabling this list, I still thing there are plenty of armies that can table it. IG mech would do a very bad number on these, particularly with a spearhead deployment. Your S4 shots are meaningless, and you're getting pie-plated, multi-laser'd, and heavy bolter'd in a big way. Any unit that gets below mob-rule is going to get PSB'd off the board. And of the 2 units that managed to slog all the way across the shooting gallery intact, he hops out with flamers and FRFSRF lasguns and finished you off.

doktor_g wrote:
My question: Given a "True Tide" ork list is it mathematically plausable to defeat it in 5 turns.

There is a lot wrong with the proposition.

As chipstar points out, define defeat. If you mean defeat in the context of any possible number of mission parameters then my response is:

Srsly?

If you mean table, the answer is yes. First of all, it would be a a total joke to just tailor a list that can faceroll a pile of trash ork army like this. One among many: IG with 9 Colossi. Clearly you don't know what those are, because you wouldn't have posted this list with this question had you known. Large blast template, indirect ordinance, wound your orks on 2s, ignore cover and negate base armor. kthxbai.

But, as we all know, tailoring a list to screw another takes about all of the intelligence exhibited by room temperature baking yeast. With a standard, tournament style mech IG list like the one I run (Manticores and other friends), you'll still get facerolled. Hard.

Not only is this list "defeatable", it's bad. Really bad.

discountbarber wrote:Not only is this list "defeatable", it's bad. Really bad.

Don't be so sure of yourself there. I got a top ten finish at a GT with a very similar green tide list. It was 2000 points, I want to say, and so I had a few other things, kommandos and grot kannons, but for the most part it was putting as many boyz on the table as possible. And, if you run such a list at a take-all-comers event, you have a good chance to do well because everyone else gears up to fight mech and to fight deathstars. 180 orks wins a lot of games.

Redbeard wrote:And, if you run such a list at a take-all-comers event, you have a good chance to do well because everyone else gears up to fight mech and to fight deathstars. 180 orks wins a lot of games.

Complete agreement. Foot lists completely mess with people at competitive events.

@ chipstar and discount: Thanks for not pulling any punches. Lol.

@ pretre and redbeard: Thanks for the defense?

Yeah I think my tactical gameplay, deployment and list building (especially in this case) is poor and generally from the 1000 mouths of the iternet. Living where I do, I don't get frequent play and I'm a nOOb (14mo) coming from a Adeptus Titatnicus / Space Marine experience in the 80s and very early 90s only. That said, I really thought (think) 1500 points would seriously put a hurt on the flashy Grey Knights. I mean, how many CC attacks does a dread knight get? Also, ignoring cover and armor with barage/ordinance? Sobeit there's more where that came from to press the flesh. I have zero experience w GK and revile the IG because they crush me. I have an IG codex so I could may be able to game that out if you folks could provide a list at the point level. Not that I don't believe you... Because your criticism and opinion is pretty much unanimously shared .

Thanks again,
Dr. G


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And defeat means I lose. Tabled, well I'm not sure of the difference. I think I've only ever been tabled. Lol. It's never that I "barely lost." I either get crushed and humiliated or "barely win."

The thing about dreadknights is, if the grey knight player can off your powerklaws, you'll start losing boyz, and you're looking at severe odds against hurting the thing without it. Each ork attack, which granted, there will be many of, has only about a 1% chance of getting a wound through, as you're both wounding on a 6+ and it's saving on a 2+. The dreadknight will be getting either 4 attacks 3+/2+ or 3 attacks 3+ rerolled/2+ rerolled, depending on whether it has the sword or not. That's likely to be 3 boyz + 3 more to combat res each round.

Sure, that's a tarpit that'll last all game, except, when he rushes in the purifiers to help. Now cleansing flame kills half your remaining guys and their attacks probably take another 4, plus the ones on the dreadknight, and now you're testing to break at -4 or worse.

At least that's how I'd play it on the GK side. I'd shoot you as long as I could with stormbolters, while my vindicare picked off your powerklaws (and maybe your forcefields too), using the dreadknight to hold you off me until I was ready to sweep units.

182 Models lets assume half get a 5+ cover and half get a 4+ cover every turn.

To beat 91 5+ saves = 137 wounds
To beat 91 4+ saves = 182 wounds

Total wounds caused needed = 319

Assume you are fighting marines and shots you are receiving are 80% S4 and 20% S6+

Per 100 hits = 1/2*80 + 5/6*20 = 57 Wounds

So total hits needed is 319/57 * 100 = 560 hits

560 hits = 840 shots needed.

Thats a fair bit of resilience!

K Try this math

26 boys with pk nob and no pointless (and illegal) rokkits. 196
6 bikers with a similar nob is 190
25 boys makes us equal.

Against frfsrf in rf range.
Boys
3 shots 1.5 hits .5 wounds .416 die
25/.416=60 guard kills your unit.
Bikers
3 shots 1.5 hits .25 wounds .125 die
48 kills mine.
20% difference. Double speed and not reliant on cover.

The big difference is templates.
Try a basilisk
Boys.
Assume even formations clumped in "cover" at 1" spacings ergo for 1" of base 1" of space. .5 orks per sq inch.
Large blast 5" diameter ~ 19.5"~ 10 orks. 8.33 die no saves
25/8.33/2(scatter averages)=6 shots.
Bikers
6 spread 1.5" in line. Hit counts as 3. /2 for scattering results. 1.25 wound 0.625 die.
6/0.625=9.6 blasts
37% differnce.

Bikers are more mobile. Easier to manage. Easier to defend. Better against blasts by almost double their disadvantage to small arms. Can turbo for a 3+. And are in effective assault range a turn after shooting. Aka run or be assaulted.

Green tides cause problems at tourneys because players over balance to the meq average and your model count just out maths them. But beyond that players who'd expect orks will be prepared. The problem is your list is models just to have models. Thats never going to work long run.

I dunno... lasgun is Str 3 and allows armor saves. Say you have 20 Lasguns getting 3 shots (60 total). Those BS 3 IG are hitting with 50% of their shots (so 30 hit) and they have to roll 5+ to wound (so 10 are actually wounding). You get your armor save of 6 (assume you have no cover) and your taking 9 losses. Next round your charging them because they can't charge due to shooting you with rapid fire weapons. Your weapons are assault so you shot, kill a few, then your rape them in CC.

As for Mech Guard, well, they don't get Orders inside vehicles, so they can't produce as much firepower with their lasguns. The thing that Orks ride is that T 4, so Guard /need/ some sort of anti-infantry weapons to really be able to handle that many Orks on the table, specially when you run first turn and Waaagh! the second or third turn.

But I will say this Dok G, any list that is created to defeat Green Tide can and will, or at least give it a hell of a go.

What I would do is play smaller point games with your buddies. Try some 400pt Combat Patrol, where this may allow you to play some other types of Ork lists and be more versital, forcing /them/ to be more versital.

Thanks fellas. I don't know if those GK Purifiers are using flame templates as I don't have their Codex. My point with this list is their will be much less shooting at my orks once they are in CC. So a flamer would be no go. And I don't know if you have the ability to snipe in CC (ie target Nobz). Or snipe in shooting (ie target KFF or Nobz). I know Rune Priests could. The only targetable model I have in CC are the BMs. In reallity probably a full Str mob against a Walker has only 2-3 turns of CC before it's routed or destroyed.

I've played a 400 pt Ork tide Combat patrol, but I threw in some Kans too. They popped immediately. Silly Killy. Str3 explosions 6". Pissed me off something fierce. They're like on my opponents side. Suicide bombers in a ork market.

Finally why would rokits be illegal?

Purifiers have a psychic power, used before the first round of combat. If they pass it, on Ld9, then every model in your unit takes a wound on a 4+ roll, that counts for combat res.

That means if one purifier hits your lines, you stand to take 15 wounds and lose, on average, 12 models. That's before blows are struck. If 5 of them hit your lines, then their attacks will take care of another 4 or so boyz, leaving you at 14 to swing back with. Given that you're not charging, you'll do, on average, 7 wounds, and they'll save, on average, 2 or 3. Your 14 boyz will have lost combat by 13, but they're still fearless, so will take another 13 wounds in combat res, of which you'll be lucky to save 2. The next round, your three surviving boyz will face his three surviving purifiers, and lose.

And, yes, the GK have an assassin model who is able to pick targets out of a unit, so your nobs and/or meks are at risk. They used to be able to fire into combats as well, but not anymore.

Who said anything about rokkits being illegal?

Do not assume extremes in opposing player army lists. MY buddy Phil runs a 2000 point Foot and Mech IG TAC combo. He is able to give orders to the dismounted units, and has a plethora o' tanks. Also, Lasguns are not the only weapons his Troops carry. Mortars and Grenade launchers eat Orks from a fair distance as well. It is pretty nasty. We played once and we only got through two of his turns and one of mine before I was tabled. He slaughtered me so fast that he did not even enjoy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What's worse is when 5 Purifers multi-charge two 30 Mobz next to each other.

He meant that you can only take 1 weapon upgrade for every 10 Orks in a Mob, and must have 30 to take all 3.

discountbarber wrote:

doktor_g wrote:
My question: Given a "True Tide" ork list is it mathematically plausable to defeat it in 5 turns.

There is a lot wrong with the proposition.

As chipstar points out, define defeat. If you mean defeat in the context of any possible number of mission parameters then my response is:

Srsly?

If you mean table, the answer is yes. First of all, it would be a a total joke to just tailor a list that can faceroll a pile of trash ork army like this. One among many: IG with 9 Colossi. Clearly you don't know what those are, because you wouldn't have posted this list with this question had you known. Large blast template, indirect ordinance, wound your orks on 2s, ignore cover and negate base armor. kthxbai.

But, as we all know, tailoring a list to screw another takes about all of the intelligence exhibited by room temperature baking yeast. With a standard, tournament style mech IG list like the one I run (Manticores and other friends), you'll still get facerolled. Hard.

Not only is this list "defeatable", it's bad. Really bad.

Ya, this is not a bad list...........

1500 points, with 182 models on the field.......nothing to shake a stick at. Even if you can Pie plate with a few Manticores, theirs still plenty more boyz to get into charging distance. Not to mention the KFF meks that will be giving 2 of the 6 squads a 5+ cover save. which is loads better than a 6+ armor save that we wont be able to take anyway.

For 1700 points you could get:

CCS:50, heavy bolter-10
ccs total-55

I infantry platoon:
PCS-30, flamer*4=20, 50
Infantry squad*2=100
HWT*5=300
HB*5=25
platoon total-475

II infantry platoon-as above, 475

3*Manticores=480

pyscher battle squad-110+55=160
total-1650
This gives you 31 heavy bolters and 3D3 S10 pie plates per turn.
The bolters give you 93 shots per turn, that's 47 hits (one of them is BS4, remember), about 35 wounds.
Cover...depends, obviously.
And you can pick enemy units at will to lower their Ld to 2. Especially effective turn one, pick a unit on the table and it'll be gone by the end of the turn by morale check alone.
Without even mentioning manticores...

Ghenghis Jon wrote:He meant that you can only take 1 weapon upgrade for every 10 Orks in a Mob, and must have 30 to take all 3.

His units all had a full 30.

26 normal + 3 w/ rokkits + Nob.

Also, from experience, those rokkits aren't pointless.

God do I hate manticores! 480 points for 3?! Gorkdamnit!

What is the point cost on the Purifier?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah! I think 24" Str 8 on the rockits.Total of 18 shots. 6 auto kills of MEQs. Or one glance on a land raider every turn. Hmmm. That doesn't sound so impressive. Grrr.

People saying this list is good are just wrong, I'm sorry. I am not trying to be some crazy hater, but bringing 180 boys seems like a great idea, and I want it to be a feasible tournament list (I love ridiculous lists), but in the current meta of GK/IG/SW that's going on, its just not going to be successful.

People are saying that "oh no, a manticore", as if that is the only thing in an IG parking lot. He also has 8 chimera's with HB/ML/HF, hydras, vendettas, heavy weapons (chimeras have 5 fire points), vets with melta and plasma, usually a psyker battle squad that can drop another pie plate, master of the ordinance (another pie plate), and THEN you get the FRFSRF lasguns to the face. And all you are going to be able to do is fire some rokkits and hope that the one PK in each squad can pop his 17 tanks over 5 rounds before you're wiped from the table. Sorry, but again, no.

chipstar1 wrote:People saying this list is good are just wrong, I'm sorry. I am not trying to be some crazy hater, but bringing 180 boys seems like a great idea, and I want it to be a feasible tournament list (I love ridiculous lists), but in the current meta of GK/IG/SW that's going on, its just not going to be successful.

Although IG have tools that can handle the tide, they're very, very rarely seen in a tournament. What is a guard player going to do against you? He's got a parking lot that hampers his mobility. He has vendettas - wow, that can kill almost three orks a turn, if they're out of cover. Master of Ordnance? Seriously? In a tournament? Hydras - 4 shots = 4 boyz, at most.

Then you start firing back with your rokkits, and those tanks get suppressed. If anything, the hull heavy flamers are the biggest threat, and you can neutralize them.


SW usually aren't prepared for the horde either. It takes a lot of firepower to kill that many boyz, and if they're running a razorspam list, they don't have it, they've got a ton of lascannons instead.

Grey Knights have the best tools of the three, largely due to purifiers and the threat they pose. But, that's still a small squad, and a good green tide list runs plenty of shoota boyz too, so you can actually shoot them up.

It's easy to say a list isn't good on the internet. It's another matter to have to play it when your army is designed to take on a meta of GK/IG/SW. 180 boyz should auto-win kill point missions. It should get, at least, a tie in take&hold. How is this bad? I'd take 180 boyz, a mek, and as many lootas as then fit at the point level to any tournament (and have) and really, the only reason I don't anymore is because it's a bit of a pain in the butt and the games aren't that much fun.

A humble 10 man death company with a chaplain should kill all orks except the Nob (due to wound allocation) before they even swing back. It might be one of the most efficient ork killing units in the game pt. for pt. FNP and 3+ armour lets them stand up to ork shooting as well.

Not sure that I disagree that my list is ridiculous. And the IG list that counters it presented above by Joey (thankyou) doesn't include 7 chimeras to my reading. It includes 3 tanks (manticores) only. I may have missed something though. Also the manticores are useless once we're in CC. So where is this GK list that can handle the true tide? Just so I can see it. 'Cause wants it precious. Also try to Remember that if you bring 1700 points, that I would still have 30 unused points for a Kan or something.
Thanks again!
DrG

I'm going to ignore everything Redbeard says in this thread, because his list of fallacies and mistruths is just not worth picking through.

@doktor_g. Here's an idea of an IG mech list, vehicles only, 1750 points level, from a very large GT:

7 Chimeras (4 ML/HB, 3 ML/HF)
2 Vendettas (3x TL Lascannon)
2 Hydras (which also have HBs, Redbeard)
2 Manticores (also have HF)

Vehicles alone, we're talking 21 ML, 18 HB, 5 HF, 8 TL Hydra shots, 2xD3 Large Blasts, and 6 Lascannons. 53 s5+ shots, 5 heavy flame templates and up to 6 Large Blasts.

That doesn't include any melta vets, lasguns, psyker battle squad, MotO, etc.

So far I've only seen people posting IG and GK as serious possibilities for beating this list (and I'm only talking about the all comers lists - I tend to ignore the "I could take 60 Combi-Flamers if I make a Logan's Heroes list" type of comments since no sane person would take a list designed to only be good against the green tide to a tournament). I think that this list would probably rock everything besides IG and GK when most other lists are designed to Melta open a transport and then kill the few passengers inside. At 1700 pts, my space wolves are not equipped to kill almost 200 Orks. Anyone else have a "successful" tournament type list besides IG and GK that's equipped to fight this many Orks?

chipstar1 wrote:I'm going to ignore everything Redbeard says in this thread, because his list of fallacies and mistruths is just not worth picking through.
.

I should probably let you know that Redbeard is one of the most respected generals on DakkaDakka who has placed very high in many-a-tournament and you are digging yourself and incredibly large hole. Don't just dismiss others' opinions when they disagree with you, especially when their point is more valid than your own.

Iranna.

A vulkan list might stand a chance with flamers and melta,

BronzeJon wrote:A vulkan list might stand a chance with flamers and melta,

How many Flamers would a tournament going Vulcan list have? And would they kill enough that they could survive the following charge? (if you're close enough to flame, the Orks are close enough to charge - and there are over 180 of them).

My first question is do you have enough time to move all the models and room to deploy in a tournament?

Also if you are considering this for a tournament surely you might as well bring some more straight forward killy units?

D0 not get me wrong 180 is hard to kill and can kill quite well.

Man... the haters really come out of the woodwork.

Chipstar, dismiss Orks as much as you want, but hoard is hoard, weather it is Orks and Nids or Chimeras and Razorbacks. The point is to overwhelm the foe with the aspect of a list that he may not be fully equipped to deal with.

That vehicle list you posted... your killing 17 Orks Turn 1, not counting the Manticore. Heavy Flamers are moot because they are short range, effectivily you get one shot, because your being charged next turn. Sure, sounds like alot of fire power, but doing the math, throw away half the shots from the BS 3 (29 due to TLed), then you still have to wound and I gave them 6+ cover saves. If your Manticore doubles the kills to 34, that is really one mob, Turn 1... he is in close comabt with you Turn 3 the latest due to Waaargh!

That is a valid tactic, don't be ignorant by dismissing it. No one can control dice karma unless they cheat.

MFletch wrote:My first question is do you have enough time to move all the models and room to deploy in a tournament?

Also if you are considering this for a tournament surely you might as well bring some more straight forward killy units?

D0 not get me wrong 180 is hard to kill and can kill quite well.

This is pretty much the point. A Green Tide + bits and bobs (Lootas/Koptas/Buggies) is a really good list - The problem is in a timed game, theres just too many models to move around.