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Im about 3/4 the way through this and whilst its always very unfair to judge a book before the final page I had to get this off my chest and ask you guys/gals what you think.
Going to be spoiler heavy for obvious reasons
Spoiler:
It surrounds the escape by the Chaos Marines from the Custodian cellblock and how it was executed as a piece of writing/realism.
Here are my main issues in no particular order. Im more than open to being corrected or chastised!
Spoiler:
Within the main cell is the Thousand Sons psyker - arguably one of the most powerful the Custodians have captured. However he is held in a standard cell with "psychic shielding" amongst other inmates with access to other characters as they pass by his cell. Why on Earth did they not hold him in a specially contained cell in solitary?
When they break out from the prison one of the Marines asks "where are the Custodians" (to date they have fought and killed two within the Custodians complex). The TS guy says they are all off at Prospero killing his Primarch. Ummm the Custdoains have left two of their kind on Terra during the biggest crisis in Humanitys history?
Ok so even assuming there are more of them, where are they? 7 of the most fearsome prisoners have escaped their cells and yet they manage to board an aircraft shuttle?
The fact that the Custodians use regular IG troops on secondment to guard the prisoners. This was probably one of my biggest sticking points and I view it as total nonsense.
In the depths of Terra, in one of the most secure locations there, holding the worst of Humanities enemies, regular IG troops guard it?
The fact that the World Eater was able to beat the Custodian in single combat even though he was unarmed when he emerged from his cell and the Custodian had his spear (which got broken). I have little doubt WE Sergents are almost the pinnacle of hth combat monsters but these Custodians would have trained for possibly hundreds of years to deal with any sort of combat situation that arises espeically in a gaoler scenario.
The fact that once clear of the cell block their only resistance were units of Guardsmen that they slaughtered wholesale. Again no Custodians, Imperial Fists, Black Guards or other units there to help? Hell even a small assassin squad stationed within the complex would have done the job.
The TS psyker being able to keep the head of the Custodian alive and deactivate the automatic defenses. I thought it was a bit of a tacky copout tbh.
The fact that with the biggest breakout of the most lethal warriors, it all went so.....smoothly for them.
A poor piece of writing overall imo, any views or comments?
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Would the TS guy have been interned there due to violating the terms of the Council of Nikea?
Perhaps he was engaged in sorcery openly and was caught and interned?
As for the others, I dont know, maybe the WEs committed absolute violations of the highest order and were sent to the prison for punishment?
Nurgle guy was maybe showing early signs of corruption?
Pure speculation btw, havent finished it yet so.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
The one major issue I had with this book was the Timeline. The bits about Magnus contacting the Emperor and WHEN he did it seem to go against what McNeill already established in False Gods. Magnus seemed to arrive, in this book, too late — almost 8(?) months after Horus’s treachery. Everyone on earth seemed already to know about Horus turning against the Emperor by the time Magnus got there!
Kodanshi wrote: Everyone on earth seemed already to know about Horus turning against the Emperor by the time Magnus got there!
That is one DARN good point Kodanshi. One that I completely missed when I read it myself. I also didn't pick up on the fact that all the Marines just happened to be members of the naughty Legions. It would have been rather interesting of one of them was an Imperial Fist or Smurf or some such. It's rather surprising when you think about it because it was written by Graham McNiell, one of the Big Wigs of the BL stable. Maybe you would see this from one of the lesser authors but not from this guy.
However, I did enjoy the book all the same.
Looking forward to Know No Fear, oh yes indeed! Does anyone know what Fear To Tread will be about by James Swallow? I'm kinda hoping that it will be about the Blood Angels.
"How many people here have telekenetic powers raise my hand" - The Emperor, The council of Nikae
"Never raise your hand to your children, it leaves your midsection unprotected" - The Emperor
"My father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic" - Kharn
^ That looks incredible! However… both Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill have stated that Sanguinius had black hair (the pictures we see of him with blonde hair are presumably artistic interpretations to make him better suit the ‘angelic’ look). Aaron Dembski–Bowden mentioned on B&C forums that Jim Swallow actually prefers the idea of Sanguinius having blonde hair.
I thought the black hair was when he was in mourning for his dead troops from the incident on the planet murder(?) May have that wrong as it's been a while since I've read the early books
I'm pretty sure a great deal of early images of Sanguinius had him with blonde hair, most of the images here do :http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Sanguinius as do practically all of them in the Dakka Gallery.
Anyway, as I haven't ventured my opinion on the Outcast Dead I thought it was interesting but certainly not the best or strongest of the series. The scenes with the Emperor and Kai were particularly interesting given their games of Chess/regicide. The potential parralels between the Emperors mention of sacrificing pawns to gain an advantage and the recent death of Ferrus makes me question the true bonds between the Emperor and his sons and just what he really intended for them-as did the words of the Thunder Warrior.
But what I really liked was the vision by that Crypto analyst chap (his name and exact title escapes me) who sees
Spoiler:
A potential plot spoiler for the Alpha legion? It was something about one soul in two bodies being pulled in different directions. Given the general confusion over the Alpha legion and its true motives I look forward to seeing wether there is actually a link here or if I'm just reading to much into it.
But I agree the timing of events is very messed up. I suppose we could just say 'The warp did it' but it seems too much of a cop out to satisfy me, and I assume the majority of readers.
"To be truely evil you must acknowledge the right thing to do in a situation, and then do completely the oposite"
Finished it last night. Loved the first half but the second just had too many glaring holes for me to palette.
Can someone clarify this for me too:
Spoiler:
When the TS guy "blinds" himself unleashing the demon?
I have never heard of this before in 18 years of 40k fluff.
In addition he summons a Daemon? but its in the form of the statue? Again never heard of that before. Surely Daemons are Daemons and have distinct and well documented forms.
Did I miss something?
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Would the TS guy have been interned there due to violating the terms of the Council of Nikea?
Perhaps he was engaged in sorcery openly and was caught and interned?
As for the others, I dont know, maybe the WEs committed absolute violations of the highest order and were sent to the prison for punishment?
Nurgle guy was maybe showing early signs of corruption?
Pure speculation btw, havent finished it yet so.
I just think that they happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. But am not sure on the Thousand Son. That i'll have to refresh me memory on.
Storm Lord wrote:I thought the black hair was when he was in mourning for his dead troops from the incident on the planet murder(?) May have that wrong as it's been a while since I've read the early books
He decorates his cheeks with tears of black ash, if I recall, not his hair. His hair is described as being Black in Horus Rising and Thousand Sons.
Storm Lord wrote:Anyway, as I haven't ventured my opinion on the Outcast Dead I thought it was interesting but certainly not the best or strongest of the series. The scenes with the Emperor and Kai were particularly interesting given their games of Chess/regicide. The potential parralels between the Emperors mention of sacrificing pawns to gain an advantage and the recent death of Ferrus makes me question the true bonds between the Emperor and his sons and just what he really intended for them-as did the words of the Thunder Warrior.
A potential theory and one that I also believe in. The Emperors main goal is to protect humanity after all, regardless of his creations, but he could also mean himself as well.
Storm Lord wrote:But what I really liked was the vision by that Crypto analyst chap (his name and exact title escapes me) who sees
Spoiler:
A potential plot spoiler for the Alpha legion? It was something about one soul in two bodies being pulled in different directions. Given the general confusion over the Alpha legion and its true motives I look forward to seeing wether there is actually a link here or if I'm just reading to much into it.
This I didn't pick up on, I'll have a look.
Storm Lord wrote:But I agree the timing of events is very messed up. I suppose we could just say 'The warp did it' but it seems too much of a cop out to satisfy me, and I assume the majority of readers.
indeed, check these out!
Spoiler:
"He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction." - A Thousand Sons, Page 535.
Spoiler:
"But what of Magnus?" asked Maloghurst urgently. "What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?"
Horus smiled. "Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus' treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe that I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of effort." - False Gods Page 405.
Spoiler:
‘Magnus lives,’ snarled Horus. ‘Then he may yet be a danger.’ ‘No,’ assured Erebus. ‘The spires of Prospero have fallen and the warp echoes with the powerful sorcery Magnus used to save his warriors and escape.’ - Galaxy in Flames Page 135.
Spoiler:
‘I see,’ said Horus, ‘and the Council’s concern is simply with Angron’s bloodlust?’ ‘Not entirely,’ he replied. ‘As I said, the Wolf of Fenris has been despatched to Prospero in order to bring Magnus back to Terra, though for what purpose I do not know.’ - Fulgrim Page 278
Spoiler:
Soon, only the Sons of Horus remained in orbit over Isstvan V. ... ‘What do you bring me, Mal?’ asked Horus. ‘A communication, my lord,’ replied his equerry. ‘From whom?’ Maloghurst smiled. ‘It’s from Magnus the Red.’ - Fulgrim Page 411
Ratius wrote:Finished it last night. Loved the first half but the second just had too many glaring holes for me to palette.
Can someone clarify this for me too:
Spoiler:
When the TS guy "blinds" himself unleashing the demon?
I have never heard of this before in 18 years of 40k fluff.
In addition he summons a Daemon? but its in the form of the statue? Again never heard of that before. Surely Daemons are Daemons and have distinct and well documented forms.
Did I miss something?
Not sure on this either, will also have a look at this.
Yup they did indeed but still, if I were putting together a kill team I'd like a few SoSs too!
I suppose Im just disappointed overall with the ending of the book, the first half really grabbed me but it fell apart imho.
Way too many plot holes and it felt rushed at the end too.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Atharva is part of the Crusader Host as per the other guys. The only difference here is that his Legion is one that is not currently recognised as being a Traitor. This is why he is questioning his imprisonment.
It is potentially worth reading due to the ending in which:
Spoiler:
The Luna Wolf Character escapes to roam Terra freely. Chances are he will appear later in the series in some way
Of course, if you are only interested in Primarchs then the fleeting appearances of Dorn are unlikely to do it for you. Treat it in a similar way to Nemesis or Mechanicum, a nice addition to the series and general plot, but by no means essential. In my view at least
"To be truely evil you must acknowledge the right thing to do in a situation, and then do completely the oposite"
Ratius wrote:Finished it last night. Loved the first half but the second just had too many glaring holes for me to palette.
Can someone clarify this for me too:
Spoiler:
When the TS guy "blinds" himself unleashing the demon?
I have never heard of this before in 18 years of 40k fluff.
Never heard of it, but different Daemons of different power will have a different result (with different forms of summoning). It's not far-fetched that he might be blinded unleashing it.
In addition he summons a Daemon? but its in the form of the statue? Again never heard of that before. Surely Daemons are Daemons and have distinct and well documented forms.
Did I miss something?
Not all Daemons will have similar forms. The standard Greater Daemons and Lesser Daemons of the main Chaos Gods maybe, but even then they could likely alter their forms to a degree. They won't all look or act the same. Is it a Daemon of one of the big four?
I don't think the daemon was meant to belong to any of the big four. The way I saw it was the focus of the statue as a point of grief within the temple led it to absorbing in some way the emotions of those within the temple. In the same way as emotions in the warp eventually come together to make Daemons/Chaos Gods/other nasty gribblies the same happened here. However rather than the emotions being in the warp, and thus get absorbed by the Chaos Gods or dissipating, they collected within the statue, or the statue represented a weak point in the material universe that the warp bled into. With the statue being the focal point the Daemon inside it would take on its physical features/the features that the grieving people associated with death ie the reaper form it took upon release.
While this is mostly conjecture, it was the way I used to understand it.
Also, I thought the Thousand Son blinded himself before unleashing the Daemon from the statue, in order that he could fight the blank. By 'blinding' himself from the warp the anti-psyker abilties counted as null from the blank, making it effectively a fist fight.
"To be truely evil you must acknowledge the right thing to do in a situation, and then do completely the oposite"
I don't think the daemon was meant to belong to any of the big four. The way I saw it was the focus of the statue as a point of grief within the temple led it to absorbing in some way the emotions of those within the temple. In the same way as emotions in the warp eventually come together to make Daemons/Chaos Gods/other nasty gribblies the same happened here. However rather than the emotions being in the warp, and thus get absorbed by the Chaos Gods or dissipating, they collected within the statue, or the statue represented a weak point in the material universe that the warp bled into. With the statue being the focal point the Daemon inside it would take on its physical features/the features that the grieving people associated with death ie the reaper form it took upon release.
Yes, reasonable enough I think.
Spoiler:
Also, I thought the Thousand Son blinded himself before unleashing the Daemon from the statue, in order that he could fight the blank. By 'blinding' himself from the warp the anti-psyker abilties counted as null from the blank, making it effectively a fist fight.
[/spoiler
[spoiler]My reading of it was that in his last act of blinding himself, he unleashed the Daemon - not really before or after but simultaneously. Yes he did it so he could fight the Blank fairly.
Spoiler:
The Luna Wolf Character escapes to roam Terra freely. Chances are he will appear later in the series in some way
No I thought this happended albeit highly suggestively
Spoiler:
The Luna Wolf was captured by the Thunder Wolves and his Geneseed used to complete their experiments as per the last paragraph of the book.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
The group of scenes in question(at least earlier in the topic) was fething ridiculous. I'd like to add some points about the realism of it all:
Spoiler:
- Why were none of these prisoners kept in a handicapped state? Yes, space marine vitality can take a heavy beating, but I'm sure what I believe is supposed to be the hardest prison in the galaxy should have at its disposal some serious stuff to keep the marines in a weakened state. But I'm sure the TS psyker would have mary sue'd his way out of that by just happening to be a master of some restorative psychic ability discipline or something.
- Why were more and better armed and armored guards not, you know, *everywhere*? Not only that, there should have been gun servitors and a lot more turrets around.
- The group only encountered one or a few heavy, locked doors, but it seems like this prison should have been heavily compartmentalized, with basically blast doors cutting off would-be escapees.
- Any vehicle going to/from the prison should have an interface that completely locks out unauthorized users.
- The craft they escaped out should have been blown out of the sky by air defense turrets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/21 04:46:50
No I thought this happended albeit highly suggestively
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The Luna Wolf was captured by the Thunder Wolves and his Geneseed used to complete their experiments as per the last paragraph of the book.
Ah, I didn't pick up on that. I assumed it was from one of the Astartes who had fallen during the battle
The latter was my assumption also. I seem to recall somebody suggesting that he would be the subject of a forthcoming audio, though I don't recall whether that was a rumour founded in something concrete or mere speculation. It may well be significant that the shares his name with the protagonist of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, which has been a noticeable influence on GW's style down the years.
Red Hunters: 2000 points Grey Knights: 2000 points Black Legion: 600 points and counting
Ronin-Sage wrote:The group of scenes in question(at least earlier in the topic) was fething ridiculous. I'd like to add some points about the realism of it all:
Spoiler:
- Why were none of these prisoners kept in a handicapped state? Yes, space marine vitality can take a heavy beating, but I'm sure what I believe is supposed to be the hardest prison in the galaxy should have at its disposal some serious stuff to keep the marines in a weakened state. But I'm sure the TS psyker would have mary sue'd his way out of that by just happening to be a master of some restorative psychic ability discipline or something.
- Why were more and better armed and armored guards not, you know, *everywhere*? Not only that, there should have been gun servitors and a lot more turrets around.
- The group only encountered one or a few heavy, locked doors, but it seems like this prison should have been heavily compartmentalized, with basically blast doors cutting off would-be escapees.
- Any vehicle going to/from the prison should have an interface that completely locks out unauthorized users.
- The craft they escaped out should have been blown out of the sky by air defense turrets.
Spoiler:
There were 12 of them originally, the TS guy only broke out the one he could still use. For whatever reasons, physical or mental, the others were unviable.
There were armed guards and turrets all over the place. It described them satisfactorily.
They had every means to open doors and steal vehicles stolen from the dead Custodes.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
The Luna Wolf was still at large at the end of the book as he isn't accounted for amongst the dead. Rogal Dorn sends Nagasena on his final hunt.
I put the Geneseed down to being harvested from one of the dead guys Kiron or Gythua. We don't know the lenght of time that it was between the Outcast dead being caught and their meeting with Babu Dhakal. If he hadn't let them go willingly then the Outcast dead would have been, well, dead at his hands
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/27 09:59:40
The Luna Wolf was still at large at the end of the book as he isn't accounted for amongst the dead. Rogal Dorn sends Nagasena on his final hunt.
Spoiler:
Hmmm, that dosent necessarily mean he wasnt captured by the Thunder Wolves however.
Taking the Geneseed from the two dead Marines is quite unlikely because those that survived carried their bodies to the Temple and burned them.
I doubt with a high level of incredulity that they would have let the Thunder Wolves anywhere near the dead bodies let alone defile their Geneseed.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Hmmm, that dosent necessarily mean he wasnt captured by the Thunder Wolves however.
Taking the Geneseed from the two dead Marines is quite unlikely because those that survived carried their bodies to the Temple and burned them.
I doubt with a high level of incredulity that they would have let the Thunder Wolves anywhere near the dead bodies let alone defile their Geneseed.
Spoiler:
Bhabu wanted the Geneseed. It was either give him that or die
We'll find out for sure though later I guess.
edit: in error was supposed to be a new post.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/31 09:14:04
18.000 
3.500 
8.200 
3.300 
2.400 
3.100 
5.500 
2.500 
3.200 
3.000
Red Hunters: 2000 points 
Grey Knights: 2000 points 
Black Legion: 600 points and counting