hm... grey knights. am i missing something?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**kb305**

so grey nights they can take a ton of "psycannons". like every squad can take one of these. or a ten man purifier squad could take 4????

and they fire 4 times, with rending at strength 7. so essentially you have 4 FOUR assault cannons??? and they only cost 10 points each for purifiers.

so if the squad doesnt move you would have 16 rending strength 7 shots?

and the dreadnaught for 15 points would get the twin linked autocannon

so that fires 4 times @ 48 inches @ strength 8.

why would you EVER take the assault cannon over the twinlinked autocannon exactly???

LOL. seems perfectly balanced to me. no issues here.

**rodgers37**

Because GKs are a great mid range army, not just a long range army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading that again, are you insane?
Do you really think its that simple? For a start you can only take 3 AC dreads

**kb305**

hm no i think i would still rather have double range thank you

**rodgers37**

Well I hope you have fun losing with your GKs

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And its not a decision of one or the other.

**kb305**

rodgers37 wrote:Because GKs are a great mid range army, not just a long range army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading that again, are you insane?
Do you really think its that simple? For a start you can only take 3 AC dreads

is it not that simple???

you would take crowe or whatever. and spam purifiers?

is it more complicated? please explain?

**svendrex**

Crowe + MSU purifers in rhinos + Psy-rifle Dreads is a very popular build for GK at the moment.

Would look something like this.

HQ: Crowe.

Elite: Venerable dreads with 2x auto-cannons and Psybolt ammo

Troops: 5-6 man purifier groups in rhinos. 2 Psycannons (to shoot out of the firepoints of the Rhino) The rest have Halberds, and maybe one hammer.

Fast: NOTHING

Heavy Normal Dreads with 2x Autocannons and Psybolt ammo

Mix and match these choices to taste

Thoughts on this build:

-Very high damage potential in the shooting and close combat phases. Psycannons are very nice, halberds + cleansing flame can hurt a lot.

-Rather low survivability. Purifiers end up being close to 30 Pts per model for 1 wound and a 3+ save and no INV.

-Anti-horde is significantly reduced with Psychic Defense. You are mainly relying on Cleansing flame to kill hordes, but Nids have shadows. If you do not get your spells off at critical moments, it could go bad for you.

-Lack of Lance/Melta/S10 shooting can mean High AV is tough. S7 rending CAN hurt AV14 but it is not easy.

This sort of build was very popular when the GK first came out, and was touted as one of the better GK builds. It is powerful, but it is not unbeatable.

EDIT: On dreadnought Weapons Choices

You can get the Assault cannon which gives you more S7 rending shots at 24" and still take the autocannon on the other arm. TOTAL of 6 shots, and if you are BS 5 (venerable) the loss of TL is not so bad.

HOWEVER

GK have S7 fire at 24" in spades on their infantry. The 2x Auto cannon dread is the default because it does something no other GK thing can. Put out a ton of fire at 48".

**kb305**

svendrex wrote:Crowe + MSU purifers in rhinos + Psy-rifle Dreads is a very popular build for GK at the moment.

Would look something like this.

HQ: Crowe.

Elite: Venerable dreads with 2x auto-cannons and Psybolt ammo

Troops: 5-6 man purifier groups in rhinos. 2 Psycannons (to shoot out of the firepoints of the Rhino) The rest have Halberds, and maybe one hammer.

Fast: NOTHING

Heavy Normal Dreads with 2x Autocannons and Psybolt ammo

Mix and match these choices to taste

Thoughts on this build:

-Very high damage potential in the shooting and close combat phases. Psycannons are very nice, halberds + cleansing flame can hurt a lot.

-Rather low survivability. Purifiers end up being close to 30 Pts per model for 1 wound and a 3+ save and no INV.

-Anti-horde is significantly reduced with Psychic Defense. You are mainly relying on Cleansing flame to kill hordes, but Nids have shadows. If you do not get your spells off at critical moments, it could go bad for you.

-Lack of Lance/Melta/S10 shooting can mean High AV is tough. S7 rending CAN hurt AV14 but it is not easy.

This sort of build was very popular when the GK first came out, and was touted as one of the better GK builds. It is powerful, but it is not unbeatable.

EDIT: On dreadnought Weapons Choices

You can get the Assault cannon which gives you more S7 rending shots at 24" and still take the autocannon on the other arm. TOTAL of 6 shots, and if you are BS 5 (venerable) the loss of TL is not so bad.

HOWEVER

GK have S7 fire at 24" in spades on their infantry. The 2x Auto cannon dread is the default because it does something no other GK thing can. Put out a ton of fire at 48".

i cant believe how many of those psycannons they can take. the thought of all those high strength rending shots seems nearly unbeatable.

i keep thinking that a vanilla terminator squad gets ONE assault cannon. with GK it's like every second marine will be carrying an assault cannon basically.

it must be really hard to beat that list you posted. survivability shouldnt be that big of an issue when youre army is tough as nails both in shooting and CC.

**Isengard**

The downside of psycannons is the poor AP.

GK are not stocked with anti-armour weapons unless you deliberately build the army that way, e.g. rifleman dreads with autocannons. Their actual squads can only take three types of heavy weapons. Yes they are good but they have their limits. Also psycannons are assault 2/heavy 4 so they would have to do a lot of standing still to get that many shots. On termies they are brutal, with the relentless nature of the suits.

Personally I will not under any circumstances go for a spam army and waac style, so I tried to build a balanced force. I have a variety of squads in mine and purifiers are just one. It is illogical to stand purifiers still to fire heavy weapons as they are an out-and-out assault unit. By getting them shooting and not charging you are getting them to risk being killed and they die just the same way as bog-standard GK marines.

To get the balance of some anti-armour I have a lascannon on one of my razorbacks and a standard land raider for the twin-linked. I also mount a typhoon launcher on my storm-brick. Opted for assault cannon on my dread as it is a close-in killer, with psybolt to up the strength, 4 shots at +1 strength is not to be sniffed at, plus a doomfist with heavy flamer.

**kb305**

they would easily outfight even blood angels in CC with those halbreds. you would charge them and they would still gib you with their high initiative power weapons.

i seems like the army doesnt have any weaknesses.

**Grey Templar**

GKs have some serious weaknesses.

1: No long ranged shooting besides Psyflemen dreads. This means they can get outshot beyond the 24" zone quite easily.

2: They are still marines, 3+ armor save and such. a 26 point purifier dies just as easily as a 16 point tactical marine. Everyone knows how to kill marines right? If you don't, you need to seriously evaluate your tactics.

3: Expensive point wise. this ties in with #2 in that they arn't any more durable then a regular marine, their terminators are less so because they can't take SS, and cost much more.

Purifiers are also NOT a dedicated assault unit nor are they a dedicated shooty unit. They are a hybrid of the two. Their purpose is to shoot those 4 psycannons and stormbolters as long as possable. Then, once the enemy has weathered that storm, they will assault with their 12 I6 FW attacks, 12 I4 regular attacks, 3 I1 Str8 attacks, and Cleansing Flame. They do both assault and shooty, but neither to the exclusion of the other.

**Brother SRM**

kb305 wrote:they would easily outfight even blood angels in CC with those halbreds. you would charge them and they would still gib you with their high initiative power weapons.

i seems like the army doesnt have any weaknesses.

I feel like heavy armor will thrash it. S8 is really powerful for cracking transports, but it's going to have a bitch of a time blowing up Land Raiders, Leman Russes, Monoliths, and the like. Marine armies in general will have a tough time though.

**Fearspect**

No Meltaguns is such a massive disadvantage that I seriously suspect people don't let them near actual mech armies.

**nosferatu1001**

They have no weaknesses? That would be why you see so many "GK" armies that contain lots and lots of actual GKs... oh wait, thats the opposite of reality - 90% of lists are Coteaz henchmen spam complete bore fests, using cheap psybacks and 12pt scoring units that try to cower in transports as long as possible, with one or two DCA units to actually try to kill someone in assault.

If you cannot kill a 26 point MEQ, you're doing things wrong. They die to shooting as well as any other T4 3+ save guy with no invulnerable, and I bet you have >24" range weapons you can take him on with, safely outside of his threat range.

ALso, those additional points add up quickly - remember you're paying those points for abilities even when you dont need or want them.

**Cryage**

nosferatu1001 wrote:They have no weaknesses? That would be why you see so many "GK" armies that contain lots and lots of actual GKs... oh wait, thats the opposite of reality - 90% of lists are Coteaz henchmen spam complete bore fests, using cheap psybacks and 12pt scoring units that try to cower in transports as long as possible, with one or two DCA units to actually try to kill someone in assault.

If you cannot kill a 26 point MEQ, you're doing things wrong. They die to shooting as well as any other T4 3+ save guy with no invulnerable, and I bet you have >24" range weapons you can take him on with, safely outside of his threat range.

ALso, those additional points add up quickly - remember you're paying those points for abilities even when you dont need or want them.

Quite the opposite here, all we ever see is the GK's when somebody plays grey knights. Anybody that would consider playing a Coteaz spam list would likely just play guard.

I've been tempted to start a Coteaz list and branch it off into a guard list.

**Isengard**

GK are undoubtedly model for model amongst the most powerful armies. Nobody, but nobody wants to tackle paladins in CC.

However, GK lack long range firepower and are likely to lose if engaged in a long range duel. Armies with poor long range capabilities such as nids and daemons are going to struggle againt them. Capable generals with a well-designed list should be able to match them. It depends on the mission. If you have to deploy close to GK you will struggle, if you get a good distance and handle it well you will handle them ok.

Another way to handle GK is to tar pit them with cheap units like rippers for example. GK are more-or-less compelled to get into CC ASAP and do not have the equipment to handle a long range slugfest.

IMHO Blood Angels are the most broken army. This is simply because they have access to all the ordinary SM options and some really good extras on top. The sheer range available to them means that someone with a big collection of models ought to be able to build an army to defeat anyone else. For example if they fight GK they might go heavy on the tanks and big guns to take them down at range. Fighting IG they might opt for a load of assault units and close. GK don't have the options to handle all situations.

**Grey Templar**

Rippers are a multi-wound model that is Fearless(IIRC)

6 Instant death causing wounds. Boom, 6 stands and 18 wounds down. Rippers take 14-16 Fearless saves.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Isengard wrote:GK are undoubtedly model for model amongst the most powerful armies. Nobody, but nobody wants to tackle paladins in CC.

My Death Company say otherwise, mainly because they don't have the choice.

Succubi (Especially Hesperax), Dreadnoughts and my ever so precious Wyches actually stand a chance against them.

**rigeld2**

Grey Templar wrote:Rippers are a multi-wound model that is Fearless(IIRC)

Under Synapse. Not that anyone takes them because they're mostly useless.

**BlapBlapBlap**

rigeld2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Rippers are a multi-wound model that is Fearless(IIRC)

Under Synapse. Not that anyone takes them because they're mostly useless.

Similar to Grotesques. Absolute monsters to take down unless the HQ dies, in which case they go berserk and kill themselves and everything around them.

**rigeld2**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Rippers are a multi-wound model that is Fearless(IIRC)

Under Synapse. Not that anyone takes them because they're mostly useless.

Similar to Grotesques. Absolute monsters to take down unless the HQ dies, in which case they go berserk and kill themselves and everything around them.

Except rippers just kill themselves...