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I have the rather odd task of building a list for a friend of mine currently on deployment. He values my list building capabilities and has requested I come up with a list for a new army while he is abroad. In fact, he'll be having his models delivered to my house and glued by a friend of mine. The theory is that when he gets back to the states he'll have an army ready to go.

With that said, he is set on Deathwing. Unfortunately, my only familiarity with Deathwing was a game at Alamo GT last May.

Here is what I was able to arrive at using Army Builder:

Dark Angels - 2000
Belial
5 Terminators - 4 TH / SSs, 1 Chainfist, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 4 TH / SSs, 1 Chainfist, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 4 TH / SSs, 1 Chainfist, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 4 TH / SSs, 1 Chainfist, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 4 TH / SSs, 1 Chainfist, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 4 TH / SSs, 1 Chainfist, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Total - 1795

For the last 200 points, we were potentially thinking a Drop Podding Ven Dread.

I don't have the codex and he hasn't bought anything yet, so any suggestions go.

Thanks!

Howdy,

Firstly the termy setup I find I need some LCs in my squads to give a boost in cc and this also helps wound allocation. Chainfists are not really needed as it is unlikely a landraider will let you assault it. Also the banner and apothecary are great add ons that can be modelled.

6 terminators is just too many. They do not bring enough killiness to the table. You can to drop it down to 4 or 5.

This should give you a good number of points to bring some cool elements to the table. Usually go for support in pairs.

Dreads, not with drop pods as they do not have drop pod assault, you can build a list that abuses this but it isn't worth going into and plasma cannons are particularly good with the missiles already in your list and they have the range you need when foot slogging.
Preds can add a nice firepower, especially lascannons which go beyond all the missiles.
Vindis also add nicely to the mix those this forces you to go forward quickly.

Also some like scouts and some like bikes so they can teleport.

Overall and in general you need to foot slog, with the small number of models you need everything on and shooting at all points-they are hard so it doesn't matter. In any case you can not force cc, as the enemy can always back away or they can charge you if it is in their favour.
Essentially this leads to building a mobile gun line that is hard to kill, this what you should work towards.

Yeah... what MFletch said...

My brother plays DA and many flavors...

At the very least, add a Ravenwing Biker squads:
3x Bikers with 2x Melta Gun
1x Sargent with power weapon, melta bomb (or fist)

They're teleport beacons are useful.

And also consider putting LC on one or two squads.

Dont forget, Belil's command squad can get the apothecary upgrade, which is a must.

At 2k something like this:

Belial w/TH/SS
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone, Apothecary
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone
Deathwing Squad w/1 PW, 2 Chainfist, Cyclone
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/PF, 2 Melta, MM Attack Bike
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/PF, 2 Melta, MM Attack Bike
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/PF, 2 Melta, MM Attack Bike

Remember than in DA Attack Bikes always count as scoring per their rules in the unit entry. So this list has 8 Scoring units, 10 ML shots per turn, and 9 Melta. Your friend could hold 3 Squads in reserve and DWA 2 squads off the scouting teleport homers on turn one.

Hulksmash wrote:At 2k something like this:

Belial w/TH/SS
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone, Apothecary
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone
Deathwing Squad w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone
Deathwing Squad w/1 PW, 2 Chainfist, Cyclone
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/PF, 2 Melta, MM Attack Bike
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/PF, 2 Melta, MM Attack Bike
3 Ravenwing Bikers w/PF, 2 Melta, MM Attack Bike

Remember than in DA Attack Bikes always count as scoring per their rules in the unit entry. So this list has 8 Scoring units, 10 ML shots per turn, and 9 Melta. Your friend could hold 3 Squads in reserve and DWA 2 squads off the scouting teleport homers on turn one.

I do not know many people who play that attack bikes are always scoring. Also the cheap typhoons are cheap. 5 TH/SS is not enough to guarantee victory in cc. Stormbolters are really not that hot. Also you need to be careful with deathwing assault.

I wasn't aware they had different drop pod rules. Thanks!

I'm fairly certain Ravenwing Bikes cannot Scout move. As I said, I don't have the codex. However, I did hear some players complaining about it recently in-store. Apparently, some kid won a recent tourney using this tactic, but I was told the codex specifically says Ravenwing Bikes cannot Scout.

With your suggestions in mind, how does this look:

Dark Angels - 2000
Belial
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher, Apothecary
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Total - 1995

Better?

Wolf 11x wrote:I wasn't aware they had different drop pod rules. Thanks!

I'm fairly certain Ravenwing Bikes cannot Scout move. As I said, I don't have the codex. However, I did hear some players complaining about it recently in-store. Apparently, some kid won a recent tourney using this tactic, but I was told the codex specifically says Ravenwing Bikes cannot Scout.

Yes, they can scout. I am sure you will read this when you do indeed get to read the codex.
The usual issue is that they can not turbo boost during their scout move. Just ask ork players how important the extra movement can be.

This is a real issue as you can get within 12'' then you get termies within 6'' of this but the enemy can make sure this is out of assault range for the next turn.

Hey Brad, I recently put together a DW army much like the one you listed (I had a unit of standard SB/PF Termies with cyclone to act as the home objective holder) and an upgraded squad with Apoth and banner. Lots of TH/SS with some LCs mixed in.
While it was a fun army to play, especially the look on your oponent face when you drop 30+ terminators on the board, it turns out that horde armies chew these guys up fast. And Purifier Spam even faster...yeah, the 2+3++ is nice, but when your doing 15-20 3++ before you even get to swing your still gonna roll alot of 1-2s. DE was also a real PITA since the venoms just stand back and dump tons of poison shots at you and whittle your squads down 1-2 guys at a time.
Once a player figures out the key to killing a squad of termies rapidly with his army, the rest of the DW falls pretty fast. Rinse and repeat.
I've since cut back the number of squads, added a Land Raider and some dakka-preds for the extra shooting. If points alow I'll bring in a standard (Ass-Can/DCCW) Dreadnought also. 2-3 speeders is the normal loadout. Its worked out alot better. You still have 4 tough-as-nails scoring units but also enough high AV that has to be dealt with to force your opponent to split his fire.
Heres a typical list I'll run:
Belial TH/SS (yeah, it kills his I5 but makes him last longer in todays GK-meta).
Int-Chaplain Terminator Armor
Upgraded squad; TH/SS x3, LC x2, 1 TH/SS is the Apoth, a second is the banner the third is the CML (lets me play the wound allocation game).
All of this in a:
LR Crusader; Extra Armor.
The banner gives an extra attack on your stat-line while the Chappy gives re-rolls on the charge. This unit pulled a Quad charge on Tau (charged 2 units of Broadsides and 2 units of pathfinders) and ended the game in 1 round of combat).
3x 5 Terminators; TH/SS x5, CML (all scoring troops feerless to the end)
2x Land Speeder: MM, Typhoon Launcher (not a squadron, 2 individual). Great for sniping high AV vehicles or sitting back and templating GEQs.
Dreadnought: Ass-Can, DCCW. If points allow. Nice for tarpitting IG blobs and the like.
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

Anyways it's a fun army to play around with but with the GK meta its hard to win events with.

@MFletch: The FAQ of on GW site allows Turbo-boosting in Scout Move.

@MFletch

It's not my fault if people don't read the rule that clearly states that Attack Bikes and Speeders added to the Ravenwing Squadron count as scoring. To be fair I missed it until relatively recently.

As far as the SB's I put them in as it is an excellent unit that puts wounds outside of CC. They make a solid objective camper as well and you'll want them to be able to affect the game.

The issue with adding LC's to squads is you lower their survivability. Especially in the GK heavy environment that is cropping up. So Hammers generally beat claws.

@DJKelly

I like the idea but the lack of bodies scares me honestly. I've found the opposite against GK's since it's rare for them to do to many wounds but that might be because I'm normally seeing Purifiers in 5-6 man squads and not larger. I'll agree the sheer number of shots in a DE list is a bit scary but I've found my biggest issue to be Chaos w/Lash since our LD10 Hood costs an arm and a leg and I can't bring myself to take it

leohart wrote:@MFletch: The FAQ of on GW site allows Turbo-boosting in Scout Move.

The DA codex rules it out and the DA FAQ hasn't changed this.

Turbo is what I meant. Thanks for the clarification.

Any thoughts on the actual revised list?

I think the list is very solid. Like some other has mentioned, I would want to swap 1-2 termies out for LCs since they generally will get more power wounds against most units. Have mixed equipment also allow for some wound allocation shennanigan.

Hulksmash wrote:@MFletch

It's not my fault if people don't read the rule that clearly states that Attack Bikes and Speeders added to the Ravenwing Squadron count as scoring. To be fair I missed it until relatively recently.

There is a jus cogens that it only applies if they are troops.

2 LCs per squad?

So 3 TH/SS, 2 LCs, and a Cyclone on one of the TH / SS Terminators?

It just doesn't seem worth it to gain 2 attacks, but lose 3+ invuls.

Wolf 11x wrote:2 LCs per squad?

So 3 TH/SS, 2 LCs, and a Cyclone on one of the TH / SS Terminators?

It just doesn't seem worth it to gain 2 attacks, but lose 3+ invuls.

But the ticket is that you get Init 4 attacks with the LCs, so you can (usually) throw some wounds out at least at the same time as the opponent is wounding you, unless you're hitting more elite CC squads. Personally, I've tried both doing the entire army with mixed weapons, and only a few specialist squads with mixed weapons, and a lot of it just comes down to luck. If you have to deploy first and your "specialist" squad doesn't make it to a good spot (or has a deepstrike mishap XD) then they might not add anything the entire game. If you get lucky and that squad makes it to combat, you might kill 4-8 units before your THs even start swinging. In the end, ymmv.

Yes, you go from 3+ to 5+ but you get three things:

+1 attack, initiave 4 and wound allocation. That means if you go against things like Assault Marines, some ICs, Orks, you will get your terminators worth before they die.

Remember that each shooting is done by squad, so most of the time, there will be only around 2-3 AP2 weapons that wound you, this can be put on the Stormshield without spilling over to LC.

Also, remember that wound allocation is a very good thing to master. A squad can have every single model as a different type:

1 Sgt
1 LC
1 TH/SS
1 TH/SS w/ Cyclone
1 SB/Chain fist

So, if you get 15 attacks, 3 of which are power weapons (e.g. got assaulted by a genestealers), you can put all the power weapons on that 1 TH/SS dude and everyone else get the normal 2+ saves. Sure the TH/SS dude is gonna die but everyone else will pass, you probably lose another termies to a single 1 though.

Another thing you can do is to use 2 squads of 5 SS Terminators walking in front of the other squads. This gives everyone behind them 4+ cover save.

Our local group rarely has Assault Marines... At local tourneys, melee fights are few and far between. Everyone is pure mech / shooting.

Perhaps the most close-combat oriented player locally is a Chaos army. It would seem TH / SSs would still be good here, right? One of our guys pulls out Nids once in a while too.

With that said, what is a good ratio for these 5 squads then?

I play DE and DoA, so I'm a bit useless in this department.

I think for a back line termies group:

Sgt w/ TH/SS
1 LC
1 TH/SS
1 TH/SS w/ Cyclone (or 1 LC w/ Cyclone)
1 SB/ Chainfist (or not)

Chainfist will make short work of AV 14. Everyone is different giving a chance to wound allocation shennanigan. SB give a small extra shots against horde.

The choice of who has the cyclone depends on what bits you got. TH/SS is very expensive to buy.

Wolf 11x wrote:2 LCs per squad?

So 3 TH/SS, 2 LCs, and a Cyclone on one of the TH / SS Terminators?

It just doesn't seem worth it to gain 2 attacks, but lose 3+ invuls.

ohhh but it is wwhen you run into a unit witha n hq you need to be able to strike early to remove threats plus you reroll to wound it pays for the loss of the invul

@Captain Collius: I agree that LC is useful but the example versus IC is not a good example. This is because thunder hammer will instant kill an IC. LC re-roll wound will unlikely kill him in one round of battle.

Through a mix of Warstore, Black Reach Dreads, and using Typhoon Launchers are Cyclone Missile Launchers, my friend has already order this army for $405. Not bad for a completely brand new and unassembled 2000 point army!

With that said, neither of us are sure what to do about the Lightning Claws. I lean towards all TH / SSs, but I think he wants some more variety.

Again, here is the list I created (thanks to y'alls input ) and he will be using:

Dark Angels - 2000
Belial
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher, Apothecary
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Total - 1995

Suggestions on how to arm the 5 Terminator squads? On another note, would it be good to give one of the Dreads a Heavy Flamer?

Also, is it common to put wounds on Belial in an effort to preserve your Terminators? If he takes a wound, he is still fighting at full strength.

I think that you should still keep 1 or 2 LC termies in a squad. Remember, the point is I4 hits and many of the harder hits will be thrown on the TH/SS anyways. Also, I am concerned about having no transport for the termies. Each squad gets 2 shots from the cyclone, but the other models aren't doing anything

BTNeophyte wrote:I think that you should still keep 1 or 2 LC termies in a squad. Remember, the point is I4 hits and many of the harder hits will be thrown on the TH/SS anyways. Also, I am concerned about having no transport for the termies. Each squad gets 2 shots from the cyclone, but the other models aren't doing anything

They can not fire if they are in a 'raider. What would remove that would make the list better for adding the 'raider? Then you expect a raider going forward by itself to survive or for that matter do you expect a squad of 5 rushing ahead to survive without the direct support their buddies?
25 fearless termies one of them will survive to walk over to and sit on a objective if that is what you are worried about.

We figure 3 squads could reserve if necessary. That way you've got 4 on the table on first turn in good position.

Dark Angel Termies can Deep Strike pretty effectively, right? That gets rid of some of the transport problem. They'll just have to survive being shot at for a turn or two before they get into the the thick of things.

If you drop the preds and go for a bike squad with MM Attack Bike you can use them to pinpoint where you drop your terminators and bring some melta too. Also you could swap out the meltas on the squad for flamers if your really that worried about hord, or go plasma for light armor and terminators. A basic squad will look something like;

Raven Wing, 3 bikes, Power First, 2 Melta Guns
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta
315

You have plenty of choices to drop things and really if your not going to take another Land Speeder Typhoon you should look at taking the bike squad. What they bring to the table as far as flexibility, and utility is huge. Also why not look at getting a Interrogator-Chaplain in TDA, with a combi weapon? I normally look at taking Ezekiel but I dont think he would work as well in your army and play style. The Chaplain is only 150 and if you put him with Belial that gives you another body with FNP and the I5 for that nice ability to hurt someone before they hurt you.

After taking several days to give the list a lot of thought, this is the finalized version:

Dark Angels - 2000
Belial
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon
Dreadnought - Assault Cannon
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher, Apothecary
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
5 Terminators - 5 TH / SSs, 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Total - 1995

As for Lightning Claws, our local tournament environment is MSU Mech and Grey Knights. There simply aren't I4 enemies that will end up fighting the Terminators in close combat. The 3+ invulnerable save will be vital for surviving a hailstorm of high strength, low AP weaponry, as well as living through I6 Grey Knight attacks.

While bikes have their place, they are very expensive points-wise and don't fit either of our visions for this army. We don't see a good way to fit them into this list and we want to focus on a "pure" Deathwing force.

The Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, and Predators offer good transport-busting support that gives the army variety and draws anti-tank fire away from the 25 Terminators.

Any last suggestions?

Plasma Cannon for the dreads? Otherwise I would be very happy with that list.

Cannons just have a range that fits your army. Grey Knights can be out shot at range.

Sometimes teleporting down can be the right decision. Against Grey Knights and MSU mech it mostly never be the right decision. Mech will out manoeuvre you once you have landed and Grey knights will like a bit of close fire followed by an assault.

Good reasoning on the Plasma Cannons. That seems more Dark Angel-y as well. As it is a free upgrade, playtesting it and switching is no big deal.

Knowing this list will typically face Mech, do you think it's built appropriately?