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Lord

Prophetess (lvl 4, Lore of Heavens/Beasts, Dispel Scroll, Warhorse) - 265

Heroes

Paladin (Questing vow, Birthsword of Carcassone, Enchanted Shield) - 127
Paladin (Knights Vow, Lance, Cuirass of Fortune, Potion of Foolhardiness) - 105
Paladin (Knights Vow, BSB, Gromril Greathelm) - 104
Damsel (lvl 2, Lore of Beasts, Silver Mirror, Warhorse, Barding) - 159

Core

12xKnights Errant (Full Command, Errantry Banner) - 281
12xKnights of the Realm (Full Command, Banner of Discipline) - 327
20xPeasant Bowmen (Standard, Braziers) - 135

Special

12xQuesting Knights (Full Command, War Banner) - 388

Rare

10xGrail Knights (Full Command, Banner of Swiftness) - 425
Trebuchet - 90
Trebuchet - 90

TOTAL - 2496

I've been playing bretonnians for a while now and the hardest part I find about writing bretonnian lists is getting the balance just right on lords, heroes and core whilst leaving enough room for elite units. Now I think I've struck the right kind of balance on a knight heavy list which can play against a majority of lists, take second turn, take any hits from the opponents first turn of shooting/magic and still come out swinging. The reason there are no men at arms is simple: even a unit of 20 to hold a banner is still 110 victory points to any enemy that can force a leadership check, stick a character on foot and you're just giving away points. The Peasant's Vow is pretty unreliable as the knight units have usually advanced out of the 6" radius. Questing Knights may not be the greatest unit in people's opinion but as an anvil unit, with enough combat res, they can recieve a charge quite well and thereafter break the opponent. I think the Knight's Vow Paladin will be the General, though I was considering giving him the sword of antiheroes so he could bring the beatdown upon character heavy units (with 5 S6 attacks if there are 2 characters in the enemy unit).

At 73 models, the majority of the army is cavalry and as such, can resist cannon fire like a boss. If a cannonball does not wound or I make that 5+ ward save then it stops dead. As usual the bowmen are there to take care of any flammable or regen monstors before the trebuchets pop a S5/10 template overhead.

I've actually been hearing that Questing Knights are one of the best units Brettonians have now, thanks to that S5 each turn.

I'd give your BSB the Dawnstone and the Enchanted Shield for a 1+ re-rollable, or maybe the Charmed Shield. Same price, a little more effect.
I usually run mine with the Virtue of Confidence, Warrior Bane, and a Potion of Speed, since I figure he'll be the target of many an assassination attempt anyway, but points are a bit tight here.

You've got four big units here. I'd consider splitting one or two of them up into smaller lances, for maneuverability and multiple targets. Maybe even drop the Grail Knights down to 6, to get s'more points. I find a big unit of Grail Knights gets magic'd and shot, and it always hurts. A small unit will either slip in unnoticed or draw a bunch of attention anyway, but at least cost to you.
Keep the Knights Errant at 12, though. They look like they'll be target #1, but my opponents usually seem to go for the higher points/model units.

Beyond that, I'd suggest little tricky things. Mane of the Purebred in a big unit for some extra hitting power. Maybe the Wyrmlance. A Feedback Scroll and the Silver Mirror can usually make lvl4's worry, which is nice, but double Dispel is cheaper.

Get a large unit of steadfast men at arms and a knight hero on foot, 40 is not the same as 20.

Keep the grail and questing knight units to a maximum of nine. Otherwise the list is ok.

Orlanth wrote:Get a large unit of steadfast men at arms and a knight hero on foot, 40 is not the same as 20.

Keep the grail and questing knight units to a maximum of nine. Otherwise the list is ok.

Steadfast leadership 8. Mercy! I do believe my list has been debunked by your 300pt unit replacing an actual decent lance of knights.

I'm sorry, Men-At-Arms slow down the lances in order to give them rerolls to Ld. As for Questing Knights at a lance of 9: you won't keep that second rank for long so why bother? With 12 they can actually be that anvil required to hold the enemy long enough in place to get a lance in the flank. A larger unit will allow them to withstand combat longer, anyway character can hide in the second rank with RAW lance rules (command models being displaced if possible) so character assassination is no real issue. The Men-At-Arms without Lore of Life to save them will simply end up being a points sacrifice. Any decent CC unit will rip them to shreds in no time at all.

Give reasons for your suggestions otherwise I can't understand your reasoning for why I should sacrifice a block of knights for 40 Men-At-Arms.

Warpsolution wrote:I've actually been hearing that Questing Knights are one of the best units Brettonians have now, thanks to that S5 each turn.

I'd give your BSB the Dawnstone and the Enchanted Shield for a 1+ re-rollable, or maybe the Charmed Shield. Same price, a little more effect.
I usually run mine with the Virtue of Confidence, Warrior Bane, and a Potion of Speed, since I figure he'll be the target of many an assassination attempt anyway, but points are a bit tight here.

You've got four big units here. I'd consider splitting one or two of them up into smaller lances, for maneuverability and multiple targets. Maybe even drop the Grail Knights down to 6, to get s'more points. I find a big unit of Grail Knights gets magic'd and shot, and it always hurts. A small unit will either slip in unnoticed or draw a bunch of attention anyway, but at lest cost to you.
Keep the Knights Errant at 12, though. They look like they'll be target #1, but my opponents usually seem to go for the higher points/model units.

Beyond that, I'd suggest little tricky things. Mane of the Purebred in a big unit for some extra hitting power. Maybe the Wyrmlance. A Feedback Scroll and the Silver Mirror can usually make lvl4's worry, which is nice, but double Dispel is cheaper.

As for splitting into smaller lances: why sacrifice in the realm of 30 points per lance on additonal command? Where do those extra points come from?

As for putting down Grail knights to 9: not unless I can Lore of Life with Regrowth, I've found that this number means enough actually get into combat to break a unit rather than flounder in subsequent rounds (hence banner of swiftness). All it requires is 2 rounds of the damsels dispelling before the grail knights get their charge and that magic/shooting becomes irrelevant. Focus on the Grail Knights means less on my KotR and Errant which generally have a really good return.

I could sacrifice the Gromril Greathelm, drop the barding on the damsel and from that scrounge the points for the dawnstone/enchanted shield combo, little efficiencies do help.

The Questing Knights are actually S6. S4+2 for great weapon.

RB

reason for a large block of men at arms is to break steadfast on your opponent.

You can kill clan rats all day and it won't really mean anything at all because they'll be steadfast leadership 8-9 with a reroll, and there will be a lot of them.

Even if every single attack from a full lance of knights hits them, that's a max of 12 dead rats. On subsequent rounds your killing strength goes way down, and you will kill an average of 2 per turn.

Now you're stuck in combat for the rest of the game.

Hi mate. Just wanted to say that I love the list especially the 12 Questing Knights I take it you roll them (6x2) i usually run 9 (10 with cheap paladin) and without a doubt are my favourite unit for both a hammer and an anvil.

To be honest there is not a lot i would change in the list and i alao cannot stand m@a hordes they are not necessary in brets.

also good to see you have covered the bane of bretonnia scenario with your bowmen.

Brother Malleus wrote:Hi mate. Just wanted to say that I love the list especially the 12 Questing Knights I take it you roll them (6x2) i usually run 9 (10 with cheap paladin) and without a doubt are my favourite unit for both a hammer and an anvil.

To be honest there is not a lot i would change in the list and i alao cannot stand m@a hordes they are not necessary in brets.

also good to see you have covered the bane of bretonnia scenario with your bowmen.

I usually run them lance formation during deployment to reduce frontage and maximize ranks for combat res on the first round of combat (hence War Banner) however if they do not break first turn (and the vast majority of the time they will win combat res) I reform their ranks wider for more supporting attacks and simply slug it out. The wider frontage I find makes them a little more vulnerable to flank charges if they at all exceed your enemy's frontage. Also the lance formation means I have the chance to get 2 lances into the enemy rather than one. I also find hiding the damsel/prophetess in the questing knights very effective since they seem to draw very little fire from the enemy (unless they happen to be the only target left).

If I have no room at deployment to put them in lance formation (such as dawn attack or meeting engagement with random deployment) I do run 6x2, however I find lance is better for maneuvering terrain rather than clipping that one knight on the forest and losing him by failing the 6+ ward save.

I used to run men-at-arms until they simply started breaking, a cannon here, a mortar there. Hell, Braingobbler from Ogres forced a unit with a damsel on foot to flee costing me many points. LD7/8 simply isn't worth it imo unless you can get the reroll, which is better served by giving it to the knights (the units which can actually do damage and cost points if they flee) rather than a throwaway 110pts unit for that extra banner in Blood and Glory. Too bad I haven't played that scenario in a bit, with 8 Fortitude its hard to outdo Bretonnians when it comes to banners.

Ignus wrote:reason for a large block of men at arms is to break steadfast on your opponent.

Correct, that is the principle benefit.

They can also:

- Form a wide line as a temporary tarpit, this works against fast thin units.
- Form a deeper line in front of the trebuchet that will not easily run. Archers will run and panic the artillery crews, knights cannot guard trebuchet.
- Provide a large volume of low strength attacks in horde that may fare better than a small number of higher strength attacks in many circumstances. Normally this means against ultra-cheap troops. A S6 lance or greatsword is wasted against skavenslaves, goblins etc halberds, swords and spears can do the job.
- Men At Arms can get a ward save if they use their swords.
- Take one for the team. Knights don't care if they run.
- Provide warm bodies; a lot of opponents will tool up on armour defeating spells like heavens and metal. So numbers can be worth more than armour saves sometimes.

Some notes:

- 40 Men At Arms with full command costs 227pts, not 300pts. Gives you a lot of versatility and numbers.
- Do not concern yourself about being out of the range of the general and BSB, Men At Arms advance as a 'second wave'. If they do their job they will either hang back and defend the firebase, or march forward into the BSB and generals radius when they arrive to rescue knights tied up fighting. When they fight they will either be in the Ld bubble, or defending units far away from it.

Orlanth wrote:Some notes:

- 40 Men At Arms with full command costs 227pts, not 300pts. Gives you a lot of versatility and numbers.
- Do not concern yourself about being out of the range of the general and BSB, Men At Arms advance as a 'second wave'. If they do their job they will either hang back and defend the firebase, or march forward into the BSB and generals radius when they arrive to rescue knights tied up fighting. When they fight they will either be in the Ld bubble, or defending units far away from it.

The 300pts was including just a standard bearer and also a knight of foot. They need a leadership above 5 or else if you lose combat for any reason, you're having to roll Ld5, Steadfast does not help when you're still Ld5.

I generally deploy my archers further away from the trebuchets in order to stop them fleeing/being destroyed and causing panic.

Big blocks I find far too cumbersome to accompany the knight units as well. I've experimented with Battle Pilgrims, Men-at-arms, pretty much everything and it simply doesn't seem to click with my second turn charge policy, which has been quite successful up to now. I'm planning to submit the list (with the slight change to the BSB) to a tournament in the next few weeks but with the given time there simply isn't room to test further with the current shortage of Fantasy players in the area.

Ah... Men-At-Arms can't use the sword&shield option. Either Halberds or Spears, that's it. 8E removed the option to NOT use a special weapon.

Ehsteve wrote:
The 300pts was including just a standard bearer and also a knight of foot. They need a leadership above 5 or else if you lose combat for any reason, you're having to roll Ld5, Steadfast does not help when you're still Ld5.

So you need to offset c300pts against more than just the knights in your lances then. Still a deal.

Ehsteve wrote:Big blocks I find far too cumbersome to accompany the knight units as well. I've experimented with Battle Pilgrims, Men-at-arms, pretty much everything and it simply doesn't seem to click with my second turn charge policy, which has been quite successful up to now. I'm planning to submit the list (with the slight change to the BSB) to a tournament in the next few weeks but with the given time there simply isn't room to test further with the current shortage of Fantasy players in the area.

Fair enough, but Brets have problems against armies with very cheap infantry. Skaven especially can absorb your power and grind you.

I was considering swapping the Birth Sword of Carcasonne for the Sword of Anti-Heroes.

You have 2 characters in that unit? Take 5 S6 attacks at WS5 I5.

I also have Heavens for Iceshard Blizzard to take down their leadership a peg. Ld9 slaves have more than twice the chance to break than Ld10.

Versing Dwarfs I know all too well the ability for the enemy to grind down a unit (especially with armywide stubborn rerolled Ld) but that only seems to occur when only a single lance can threaten the enemy unit.

Advice so far has been great and has challenged me to look at my tactics and list writing. Really appreciated.

...kay. Mostly it seems like there's been suggestions, then reasons given for why those suggestions won't be implemented.

I will say that Men-at-Arms with Beasts are awesome. S5 infantry is always nice. S5 infantry for 5pts in an army that's mostly cavalry is wicked.

If you, say, split the Knights of the Realm into two units of 6, you'd need 24pts somewhere, true. 'Course, you get an effective two more attacks from the extra frontage and the free champion. I just see a list like this and think about the Big Spells. Having a few more targets usually works to my benefit.

Also, Gromil Great Helm: 30pts. Dawnstone: 25pts. Charmed/Enchanted Shield: 5pts. Same armour plus extra protection, or more armour, for the same points.

I just don't get the hate on small lances. For some armies, you need ranks and extra bodies. But Brettonians don't suffer high casualties and take up very little frontage, while they do suffer from manueverability, magic, and cannon fire. Four ranks isn't going to strip Steadfast any time soon anyway, so it feels like an exercise in futility to put so many eggs in so few baskets.
Big lances are probably essential in 8th, but I think, once you've got a few, you can afford to get some smaller ones for support and to offer more targets.

Finally:

two twelve-knight lances versus a block of Skavenslaves- 17.1 wounds on the charge, with something like .08 wounds taken. So you've got 32.9 bodies in 6 ranks against 24 in 4. Assuming you did your Iceshard, they'll run 2.7% of the time, if the BSB is around. 16% if he's not. Those are downright terrible odds.

I will have to say, unless you are likely to charge a rat dart with a unit of knights having some infantry there to hang back might not be a bad idea, as you have only archers back there to help your trebuchet when its inevitably going to be picked off by anything agile enough to skip up there round your knights quickly and unnoticed enough.

I see either one of two things happening with the list, one your knights get tarpit by throw away units, cavalry are fairly easy to redirect. Or you spend your time running around in circles on those knights protecting the war machines and archers if you plan to at all.

I think unless your going to go for a full knight army it would be wise to field some cheap (and decent for men at arms) foot soldiers because as I see your army playing out, knights run forward to make charges, war machines and archers sit entirely undefended.

Warpsolution wrote:...kay. Mostly it seems like there's been suggestions, then reasons given for why those suggestions won't be implemented.

I will say that Men-at-Arms with Beasts are awesome. S5 infantry is always nice. S5 infantry for 5pts in an army that's mostly cavalry is wicked.

If you, say, split the Knights of the Realm into two units of 6, you'd need 24pts somewhere, true. 'Course, you get an effective two more attacks from the extra frontage and the free champion. I just see a list like this and think about the Big Spells. Having a few more targets usually works to my benefit.

Also, Gromil Great Helm: 30pts. Dawnstone: 25pts. Charmed/Enchanted Shield: 5pts. Same armour plus extra protection, or more armour, for the same points.

I just don't get the hate on small lances. For some armies, you need ranks and extra bodies. But Brettonians don't suffer high casualties and take up very little frontage, while they do suffer from manueverability, magic, and cannon fire. Four ranks isn't going to strip Steadfast any time soon anyway, so it feels like an exercise in futility to put so many eggs in so few baskets.
Big lances are probably essential in 8th, but I think, once you've got a few, you can afford to get some smaller ones for support and to offer more targets.

Finally:

two twelve-knight lances versus a block of Skavenslaves- 17.1 wounds on the charge, with something like .08 wounds taken. So you've got 32.9 bodies in 6 ranks against 24 in 4. Assuming you did your Iceshard, they'll run 2.7% of the time, if the BSB is around. 16% if he's not. Those are downright terrible odds.

Look on your Bretonnian rulebook, the Enchanted Shield is not 5pts. If there is an identical item in the BRB and your army book's common magical items, use the highest point cost. Look in the Magical item section.

The only issue this list might have from description is Skaven. That is a pretty good wrap for a list if that's the only perceived weakness.

Also I like to round my odds up (3% and 17%)

Sasa0mg wrote:I will have to say, unless you are likely to charge a rat dart with a unit of knights having some infantry there to hang back might not be a bad idea, as you have only archers back there to help your trebuchet when its inevitably going to be picked off by anything agile enough to skip up there round your knights quickly and unnoticed enough.

I see either one of two things happening with the list, one your knights get tarpit by throw away units, cavalry are fairly easy to redirect. Or you spend your time running around in circles on those knights protecting the war machines and archers if you plan to at all.

I think unless your going to go for a full knight army it would be wise to field some cheap (and decent for men at arms) foot soldiers because as I see your army playing out, knights run forward to make charges, war machines and archers sit entirely undefended.

In my backline I am leaving 300pts. the rest of the army moves foward. If I lose a trebuchet I lose a trebuchet and the archers are simply there to pick off on average one regen unit. Shooting isn't the be all and end all of the Bretonnian army. Like real tactical playout, leaving the archers unprotected does make them vulnerable to flanking from cavalry and other threats, however that's not where the bulk of the army is.

The backline is something like less then 1/8 of the points. This army I have found to be quite effective vs. Empire and even Dwarfs, the armies with the greatest ability to place down cannons. I can avoid tarpit units as usual by actual strategy and have people already forgotten I already have Heavens and Beasts, so take -1 to hit and give me +1S, +1T, all the rest is gravy.

Oh, right, the Enchanted Shield costs more in the Brettonian book. So...the Charmed Shield/Dawnstone combo is the only one that's obviously better in every way to the Gromil Greathelm.

Also, goblin/marauder/halberdier hordes would prove to be serious problems as well, and all of them see decent play. Other, more specific things would probably hurt too, like a Savage Big 'Un Deathstar with the Shrunken Head, or the Chosenstar, or units that can just plain out-kill your knights, though there's little you can do about that kind of stuff, with Brettonians or any other army, without special precaution.

Actually, the Brets have the perfect asnwer to any Infantry Deathstar.

Movement 8 takes care of it nicely. Avoid his deathstar, smash the light stuff, and make the deathstar chase you around for 6 turns. You'll do no worse than a draw that way, which against that sort of BS is as good a win as you will get, so that's what you should strive for. Anything else is just playing to his strenghts.

Vulcan wrote:Actually, the Brets have the perfect asnwer to any Infantry Deathstar.

Movement 8 takes care of it nicely. Avoid his deathstar, smash the light stuff, and make the deathstar chase you around for 6 turns. You'll do no worse than a draw that way, which against that sort of BS is as good a win as you will get, so that's what you should strive for. Anything else is just playing to his strenghts.

Which is my main tactic. If I want to get rid of skaven, one disrupted flank and they're gone (they lose ranks = +Ld). I won't charge a Gutstar head on, and other armies are far too slow to be on any real bother (having half Bret movement). Again this is a solid competing list vs. gunlines.

Only issue is since I dropped the usual HKB Lord, I will have to rely on trebs to take care of Steam Tanks (S10 d6 wounds).

With the new VC codex I am now convinced Men-At-Arms will no longer help. units of 50 zombies are the new black, 5 wide and 10 deep or 10 wide 5 deep will hold up any unit indefinitely.

At the upcomming tournament old VC armies are allowed (given the short timeframe between VC release and tournament date) but I am concerned about a new VC list coming out of left field and not knowing how to deal with it (much like any newly released army).