Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've got a good one here.

Unit of Scarabs charges a unit of vehicles. Attacks are allocated per vehicle. One vehicle goes down say to av3 and the Scarabs score a crap load of auto pens. Do these pens get allocated on all vehicles, as per squadron rules glancing and penetrating hits must be allocated evenly. Or does just that vehicle take the damage as it had the armour degraded.

Example I ran into:

Unit of Scarabs charge unit of War Walkers. I work out how many Scarabs are attacking each War Walker and roll for attacks and entropic strike one War Walker at a time. The first War Walker is reduced to av3, so all Scarab hits are auto penetrating. Do the other War Walkers take those penetrating hits or not? Rules say yes, though the other War Walkers haven't been penetrated, yet.

Any ideas?

There is no clear way on how to resolve this. My suggestion would be to evenly distribute the ES and use the majority AV for AP purposes.

In spite of it not 'making sense' I would distribute the penetrating/glancing hits as per the squadron rules. Apply Entropic Strike on a per model basis as you did.

Uh. . . hmm. Let me try to think this out.

1. Roll attacks. You are attacking the SQUADRON, not individual vehicles, at this point.

2. Resolve ES. Since you were attacking the squadron rather than individual vehicles, effects are spread evenly between all vehicles in the squadron (this is the first iffy bit, and might need to be FAQed).

3. Resolve pens and glances. . . somehow. Instinctively, at this point I want to divide hits evenly among the vehicles and then roll individually, but I don't think there's actually any rules support for that. This DEFINITELY needs to be FAQed.

4. Controlling player allocates damage as normal, and rolls on the tables.

Step 3 is really the problem, and I'm not sure how to resolve it. Sorry.

Iirc you allocate pen/glance not hits.

You do recall correctly, which is why I said there's no rules support for my proposed step 3. The problem is that Entropic Strike keys off HITS, not damage results. . . and it affects individual vehicles, not squadrons. So Scarab Swarms, at least, NEED some way to allocate hits, unless you just want to claim that the AV reduction applies equally to all the vehicles in the squadron.

Which would instantly make Scarabs hilariously, stupidly effective against Squadrons.

Hopefully the inattention paid to squadrons in the Entropic Strike wording points to squadron rules being re-worked in 6th Ed (I can dream...) Until then, I think copper's solution is fair enough.

I think it's probably best too. Just hit all Scarabs together and reduce the vehicles by the av, then roll to attack.

I would think you'd allocate all the ES's on one vehicle til its been reduced to 0.

My only reasoning for this is that's how you allocate wounds.

sirlynchmob wrote:I would think you'd allocate all the ES's on one vehicle til its been reduced to 0.

My only reasoning for this is that's how you allocate wounds.

Wounds are similar to glances/pens, not ES hits.

My issue with allocating it across the squadron is ES is on a per model basis, models lose their armor saves or have their armor reduced.

For each hit a vehicle or model suffers with this special rule, roll a D6. For each result of 4+, it immediately loses 1 point of armor value from all facings. If a vehicle is reduced to Armour 0 on any facing, it is immediately destroyed

Correct me if I am wrong, but if 2 models in a squadron move 6" and the other stays stationary, you hit 2 of the models on a 4+ and the other you automatically hit. If this is the case, hits are resolved against the individual vehicle in the unit, damage results across the entire unit.

I think for now the best way is to sort of bend the rules and allocate the entopic strikes evenly amung the squadron and then go from there with armor values, the other options don't make enough sense.

calypso2ts wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but if 2 models in a squadron move 6" and the other stays stationary, you hit 2 of the models on a 4+ and the other you automatically hit. If this is the case, hits are resolved against the individual vehicle in the unit, damage results across the entire unit.

Pg 64: Movement Phase: "When a squadron moves, all of it's vehicles move a the same speed [ ]."

If one vehicle moves at all, then they all move, just like with Heavy Weapons in a squad.

bagtagger wrote:I think for now the best way is to sort of bend the rules and allocate the entopic strikes evenly amung the squadron and then go from there with armor values, the other options don't make enough sense.

Pg 64 Assault Phase: "When engaged in close combat against a squadron, enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole."

There is no need to bend anything. Every hit is done to the whole squadron, not individual vehicles, so EACH Entropic Strike would effect EVERY vehicle in the squadron. Then you roll the hits for each vehicle separately. Should these rolls reduce the Armour of the several vehicles to different values, the Majority Rule referenced on pages 19 and 37 will be in effect for rolling armour penetration against the squadron as a whole. The player controlling the squadron will allocate the pens and glances across the squadron as he desires, and Damage results will be rolled accordingly. Far out.

yeah it seems to me that entropic strike hits alls the vehicles.
Penetrations and Glances are distributed.
determine damage results.
It makes them incredibly effective but that what scarabs are unless you have template weapons

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but if 2 models in a squadron move 6" and the other stays stationary, you hit 2 of the models on a 4+ and the other you automatically hit. If this is the case, hits are resolved against the individual vehicle in the unit, damage results across the entire unit.

Pg 64: Movement Phase: "When a squadron moves, all of it's vehicles move a the same speed [ ]."

Thanks for the correction, did not have a BRB nearby. I just want to clarify what you are saying. Essentially that since the hits are rolled on the squadron, any hit enables ES to trigger on all the vehicles. So 1 hit on 3 Leman Russes in a squadron would cause a 4+ roll for each to errode armor?

calypso2ts wrote:Thanks for the correction, did not have a BRB nearby. I just want to clarify what you are saying. Essentially that since the hits are rolled on the squadron, any hit enables ES to trigger on all the vehicles. So 1 hit on 3 Leman Russes in a squadron would cause a 4+ roll for each to errode armor?

, Yes, unless I am missing something, that is the way the rules interact with each other the way they are written. Now I'm going to have to dedicate units to bubble wrapping my Grotzooka totin' Killa Kanz.

I don't think 1 ES hit should be able to lower the AV on all models in the squadron. That would be too much.

An example of my proposed solution:
5 scarabs attack a squadron of 3 leman russ that didn't move last turn.
25 attacks -> 25 hits -> 13 activated ES.
2 LR get 4 ES, 1 LR gets 5 ES. So 2 LR have rear AV of 6, 1 LR has rear AV of 5. Roll to penetrate against AV6 and allocate pens and glances as normal.

I think it's fair and it is compatible with concept of squadrons in 40k.

copper.talos wrote:I don't think 1 ES hit should be able to lower the AV on all models in the squadron. That would be too much.

I don't think it should either, but that's the way the rules are written. We can make house rules to PLAY it differently, but, as much as we would like to, we cannot change the words as they are written any more than I can burn the Ordo Malleus part of every Gray Knight Codex with purifying flame.

This has been a real headache for me so I'm glad to see some intense rules-focused study on it.

I brought out my own BGG to check/confirm the findings so far and yes, ES is a squad-killer.

Just another reason for even more flamer/template/multi-laser love.

So let me get this straight. I have a squadron of 3 vehicles. You hit 9 times with scarabs, and pass all ES. I now effectively suffer 27 entropic strike hits? This doesn't seem right.

Plainly it's not right. There is no justification in translating vehicle hit = unit hit . ES activates on a vehicle hit, not on a unit/squadron hit. The problem lies on how to allocate hits on a vehicle while it being part of a squadron and how to deal with multiple AV values in the same squadron.

copper.talos wrote:Plainly it's not right. There is no justification in translating vehicle hit = unit hit . ES activates on a vehicle hit, not on a unit/squadron hit. The problem lies on how to allocate hits on a vehicle while it being part of a squadron and how to deal with multiple AV values in the same squadron.

Pg 64 Assault Phase: "When engaged in close combat against a squadron, enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole."

Yes, Entropic Strike 'activates' on a vehicle hit, but every hit in close combat is a hit on the squadron. How else can we read it other than a hit on each vehicle? I am seriously asking because I don't like it either, and I cannot honestly attempt to construe this rule any way other than I understand it now.

One thing I am a little more concerned about is that penetrating rolls are against the facing of the vehicle closest to the firer. If the strikes reduce the front facings of my Killa Kanz to 4, 8, and 9, and a unit fires on the squadron is closest to the AV4 Kan, then ALL pens are rolled against the AV4.

Rolling to hit against squadron as a whole is not the same as hitting a squadron means hitting each and every model (vehicle) in it. If every model is hit by one attack how come there is only one roll for penetration?
One could argue that ES does nothing to squadrons because squadron, not the vehicle was hit and ES does nothing to squadrons.
TLDR: house rule it.

As above. You have no permission to decide that a hit against the squadron is equivalent to a hit against evrey member of the squadron

You know the squadron was hit, but technically no vehicles were hit - so no ES at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. You have no permission to decide that a hit against the squadron is equivalent to a hit against evrey member of the squadron

You know the squadron was hit, but technically no vehicles were hit - so no ES at all.

After Armour Penetration is rolled, the Penetrating Hits and Glancing Hits are distributed to individual vehicles, aren't they?

So at that point the Scarabs have 'hit' an individual vehicle within the squadron. Wouldn't you then apply ES individually to each vehicle before rolling on the Vehicle Damage Table?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. You have no permission to decide that a hit against the squadron is equivalent to a hit against evrey member of the squadron

You know the squadron was hit, but technically no vehicles were hit - so no ES at all.

After Armour Penetration is rolled, the Penetrating Hits and Glancing Hits are distributed to individual vehicles, aren't they?

So at that point the Scarabs have 'hit' an individual vehicle within the squadron. Wouldn't you then apply ES individually to each vehicle before rolling on the Vehicle Damage Table?

ES is applied after the roll to hit, not after the Penetrating/Glancing Hit.

Which is why you can't use a cover or invuln save to negate ES.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. You have no permission to decide that a hit against the squadron is equivalent to a hit against evrey member of the squadron

You know the squadron was hit, but technically no vehicles were hit - so no ES at all.

After Armour Penetration is rolled, the Penetrating Hits and Glancing Hits are distributed to individual vehicles, aren't they?

So at that point the Scarabs have 'hit' an individual vehicle within the squadron. Wouldn't you then apply ES individually to each vehicle before rolling on the Vehicle Damage Table?

ES does not happen when you think it does; it is BEFORE rolling for AP, immediately after rolling to hit. At this point you have not hit any particular vehicle.

rigeld2 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. You have no permission to decide that a hit against the squadron is equivalent to a hit against evrey member of the squadron

You know the squadron was hit, but technically no vehicles were hit - so no ES at all.

After Armour Penetration is rolled, the Penetrating Hits and Glancing Hits are distributed to individual vehicles, aren't they?

So at that point the Scarabs have 'hit' an individual vehicle within the squadron. Wouldn't you then apply ES individually to each vehicle before rolling on the Vehicle Damage Table?

ES is applied after the roll to hit, not after the Penetrating/Glancing Hit.

Which is why you can't use a cover or invuln save to negate ES.

But isn't it worded as "each vehicle hit suffers X", or something similar? You don't hit any individual vehicles when you roll to hit against a squadron; you've only 'hit' individual vehicles at the point where hits against the squadron have been allocated. I'll look around and see if I can find the exact wording, although you're probably right.

Also, the reason you can't use cover against ES is because cover saves don't apply in CC, I believe.

EDIT: Found it. "For each hit a vehicle suffers from a weapon or model with this special rule, roll a D6. For each result of 4+, it immediately loses 1 point of armour value from all facings". A vehicle in a squadron does not 'suffer' a hit until Glances and Pens have been allocated. The rule doesn't say that you roll immediately after rolling to hit, it says you roll immediately after the vehicle has 'suffered' a hit; the reason you roll immediately after the To Hit roll normally is that, in all other circumstances, a vehicle 'suffers' a hit when you succeed in a roll To Hit. Since a Glancing or Penetrating Hit is a hit, and this is the only time a vehicle in a squadron 'suffers' a hit, I believe that this is how ES is applied to squadrons.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Also, the reason you can't use cover against ES is because cover saves don't apply in CC, I believe.

That and ES doesn't deal any wounds in and of itself. Saves are for wounds (or vehicle pens/glances).

Edits for clarity..

BeRzErKeR wrote:But isn't it worded as "each vehicle hit suffers X", or something similar? You don't hit any individual vehicles when you roll to hit against a squadron; you've only 'hit' individual vehicles at the point where hits against the squadron have been allocated. I'll look around and see if I can find the exact wording, although you're probably right.

Also, the reason you can't use cover against ES is because cover saves don't apply in CC, I believe.

It is something like that yes - which means, as was said, barring an FAQ the RAW means ES doesn't work on squadrons.
A) CC is not the only way to deliver Entropic Strike. B) Yes, you would not get a cover save against a Scarab's Entropic Strike, but you *would* get an invul save... if you tried to apply ES at the Pen/Glance stage.
Since that's not the way the rules work, you do not get any kind of save when hit by ES.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Since a Glancing or Penetrating Hit is a hit, and this is the only time a vehicle in a squadron 'suffers' a hit, I believe that this is how ES is applied to squadrons.

Not true. Glance/Pen is a damage result, not a hit - regardless of the name.

The squadron is hit. The assaulting unit rolls to pen. The squadron allocates damage results.

There's no hitting a vehicle in there, just hitting the squadron.
(edited to remove double post)