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Same vein as my other Necron Tactics Posts.

You guys are going to start thinking I hate Necrons. Fact is, there's lots of awesome in that book. Maybe I'll post a "Destroyer Lords are Amazing" post another day :-)

Anyway, for minimum 205 points, C'Tan are terrible.
- 4 wounds with a 4++ Invulnerable at T7 isn't all that survivable. If they were T8, it'd be much better (can't be wounded by S4). As it stands, you only have to do 8 shooting wounds to neutralize a C'Tan. Ork Loota's, Dakka Preds, Scout Squads with Snipers, Poison shooting, and many other things can neutralize a C'Tan thread very quickly. Even if you manage to bring it down to 1 or 2 wounds, you can finish the job in an assault.

- All the "good" powers are expensive. I could see if the C'Tan powers were broken down into "Minor" powers and "Major" powers, pick one of each, and the thing was only 200pts even. Then it'd be awesome. As it stands, Gaze of Death, Writhing Worldscape, and Deceiver are all very expensive upgrades, two of those being gimmicks that go away after the C'Tan dies.

- The C'Tan is only I4
- The C'Tan is only WS 5 (hitting most characters on 4's. I bet you (without math hammering) Commander Farsight could beat one in H-H. How embarrassing.

- C'Tan don't offer many tactical choices for your army. The shooty C'Tan's dont' have scary enough shots for their points, and the close-combat C'Tan's are too easy to neutralize before they can threaten the enemy (due to their slowness). You could fix this with a Monolith, but then you're spending 200 points on a Monolith just so another 205+ points you've spent in your army sucks a bit less.

Redeeming Factors
- Lord of Fire looks like fun.
- Monsterous Creatures may have different rules in 6th that better suit the C'Tan
- Fantastic Models
- Some fun gimmicks that would be fun in fun games (Writhing Worldscape, S4 Pie-Plate, Lord of Fire) (I'd love to run a Lord of Fire dude and walk him behind a monolith, helping protect it from melta).

Your threads are bordering on trolling now...

You want to see expensive MC's? Play Tyranids...

Cryage wrote:Your threads are bordering on trolling now...

You want to see expensive MC's? Play Tyranids...

Hehe... sorry. I'll lay off for a bit after this one, and save the Destroyer rant for another week. I hope people can see the humourous ranting I'm hoping to impart... If it's not entertaining, I'll can it for a bit. We've had some great discussions in the other threads though.

Ya, I've seen some pricey MC's in Tyranids. They, however, get better than a 4+ armour save, which is what really hurts the C'Tan.

loreweaver wrote:

Cryage wrote:Your threads are bordering on trolling now...

You want to see expensive MC's? Play Tyranids...

Hehe... sorry. I'll lay off for a bit after this one, and save the Destroyer rant for another week. I hope people can see the humourous ranting I'm hoping to impart... If it's not entertaining, I'll can it for a bit. We've had some great discussions in the other threads though.

Ya, I've seen some pricey MC's in Tyranids. They, however, get better than a 4+ armour save, which is what really hurts the C'Tan.

I still think you're trolling.

loreweaver wrote:

Cryage wrote:Your threads are bordering on trolling now...

You want to see expensive MC's? Play Tyranids...

Hehe... sorry. I'll lay off for a bit after this one, and save the Destroyer rant for another week. I hope people can see the humourous ranting I'm hoping to impart... If it's not entertaining, I'll can it for a bit. We've had some great discussions in the other threads though.

Ya, I've seen some pricey MC's in Tyranids. They, however, get better than a 4+ armour save, which is what really hurts the C'Tan.

The tyranids also don't get a invul save which hurts them way more.

Get shot at by enough lascannon, melta, plasma, and rending weapon spam and lemme know how that 3+ is treating you. You'll be begging for a 4+ invul save.

A few upgrades I would have liked to see would be a +1 toughness upgrade and a flying upgrade like the dreadknight / tyrant have.

I've used some different C'tan configurations in my first few games, and really have come to the same conclusion. It is is really the stupid 4+ save that kills it. It should have had a 2+ or a 3+, and it would be pretty good.

It just ends up too expensive for what it does.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/421464.page There is a little discussion in this thread about the C'tan as well.

The tyranids also don't get a invul save which hurts them way more.

Get shot at by enough lascannon, melta, plasma, and rending weapon spam and lemme know how that 3+ is treating you. You'll be begging for a 4+ invul save.

A few upgrades I would have liked to see would be a +1 toughness upgrade and a flying upgrade like the dreadknight / tyrant have.

I agree here for the most part, but the 4+ really does hurt the C'tan. It really needed something like a 3(2)+/4++.

I would have liked to see Swarm of Spirit Dust come with Fleet.

But Matt Ward says they are pretty cool in the Necron Tactica of the latest White Dwarf. Matt Ward would never lie to me.

Sasori wrote:I've used some different C'tan configurations in my first few games, and really have come to the same conclusion. It is is really the stupid 4+ save that kills it. It should have had a 2+ or a 3+, and it would be pretty good.

It just ends up too expensive for what it does.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/421464.page There is a little discussion in this thread about the C'tan as well.

Completely agree... i'm not trying to defend the C'Tan in any way. Way overpriced , but there are also way worse out there in the 40k universe.

The writhing worldscape / orikan / tremorstave trick was fun for a few games, but does not nearly do enough to make it worthwhile

Dunwich wrote:But Matt Ward says they are pretty cool in the Necron Tactica of the latest White Dwarf. Matt Ward would never lie to me.

We really don't need stupid comments like this, in a good discussion.

Please keep the Matt Ward stuff to yourself next time.

Sasori wrote:

Dunwich wrote:But Matt Ward says they are pretty cool in the Necron Tactica of the latest White Dwarf. Matt Ward would never lie to me.

We really don't need stupid comments like this, in a good discussion.

Please keep the Matt Ward stuff to yourself next time.

I'll take his comment over "You're a troll". Especially when the latter TRULY adds nothing to the discussion.

Tbh one big issue that has been missed so far is C'Tan can't have duplicate powers. This has massive implications, because it means you can't do any kind of MC Spam army without ending up with bloated, overpriced C'Tan. It wouldn't be game breaking, 3 C'Tan might actually be able to get across the board rather than being blown apart at range.

Otherwise pretty much everything has been covered, they are slow, vulnerable and massively overpriced. That said they aren't the worst unit in the codex, Flayed Ones, Praetorians and probably the Monolith are fighting it out for that.

Dunwich wrote:But Matt Ward says they are pretty cool in the Necron Tactica of the latest White Dwarf. Matt Ward would never lie to me.

I almost fell out of my chair reading that. If only c'tan were as powerful as they were in the old codex.

It's not like you can't give it stealth and use AV 13 skimmers with big profiles to make sure that it's a 3+ save when it counts.

Whoa didn't realize Matt Ward was Voldemort.

Seriously though, I don't play necrons, but I was reading their tactica to get a feel for how to play against them. Until I read this thread, C'tans seemed pretty scary. I'll paraphrase some of the things the tactica says about C'tans, if only so you guys can disprove their effectiveness.

- Has a profile that can fight a Greater Daemon to a standstill
Can take powers such as:
-Transdimensional Tunderbolt: S9 AP2 tankbusting shooting attack
- Time's Arrow: A model in base contact must pass an Initiative test or be removed from play
- Writhing Worldscape: can turn difficult terrain into dangerous terran

Sums it up with:
"These powers, plus the C'tan Shard's meaty profile, mean an outlay of over 200 points, but you'll seldom have trouble getting your investment back in a tally of slain enemies." - He who must not be named.

I forgot about Flayed Ones. I think it was a repressed memory. Like... I had this feeling that there was something worse than C'Tan in the codex, but my brain automatically skips over the entry...

Praetorians are actually kinda cool, with void blades. Monoliths aren't terrible either. IMO

Dunwich wrote:
- Has a profile that can fight a Greater Daemon to a standstill
Can take powers such as:
-Transdimensional Tunderbolt: S9 AP2 tankbusting shooting attack
- Time's Arrow: A model in base contact must pass an Initiative test or be removed from play
- Writhing Worldscape: can turn difficult terrain into dangerous terran

Sums it up with:
"These powers, plus the C'tan Shard's meaty profile, mean an outlay of over 200 points, but you'll seldom have trouble getting your investment back in a tally of slain enemies." - He who must not be named.

-Because fighting a Greater Demon in CC is the preferred method to kill the demon...?
-Transdimensional Thunderbolt costs 45 points and has worse range than a Lancetek. Also, a MCs don't need a ranged anti-tank guns.
-Time's Arrow costs 40 points, and the C'Tan is already Str 7 MC with 4 attacks base. It doesn't need another CC novelty.
-Writhing Worldscape: I've found this to be far more useful on paper than in practice. Also, this costs 35 points.

To sum it up:
These powers are all overpriced, and the C'Tan Shard's meaty profile is completely lacking where it counts: the 4+ save. You'll almost never get your investment back as most enemies can run circles around your slow-moving, very tall C'Tan.

C'tan can now walk through the monolith portal. This could let you move your c'tan accross the board instantly.

Nemesor Dave wrote:C'tan can now walk through the monolith portal. This could let you move your c'tan accross the board instantly.

True, but they can't assault the turn they come out of the portal, so two things will happen.

1) Your Monolith will get melted by CC threats (hitting on a 4+) or an actual melta gun.
2) Your C'Tan will get shot before it has a chance to assault. (Although, if he was Lord of Fire and had something shooty, like the S4 Assault 8 thingy, he could protect the Monolith a bit and maybe kill some things before he died)

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:

loreweaver wrote:

Cryage wrote:Your threads are bordering on trolling now...

You want to see expensive MC's? Play Tyranids...

Hehe... sorry. I'll lay off for a bit after this one, and save the Destroyer rant for another week. I hope people can see the humourous ranting I'm hoping to impart... If it's not entertaining, I'll can it for a bit. We've had some great discussions in the other threads though.

Ya, I've seen some pricey MC's in Tyranids. They, however, get better than a 4+ armour save, which is what really hurts the C'Tan.

I still think you're trolling.

The only one trolling are you.

loreweaver wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:C'tan can now walk through the monolith portal. This could let you move your c'tan accross the board instantly.

True, but they can't assault the turn they come out of the portal, so two things will happen.

1) Your Monolith will get melted by CC threats (hitting on a 4+) or an actual melta gun.
2) Your C'Tan will get shot before it has a chance to assault. (Although, if he was Lord of Fire and had something shooty, like the S4 Assault 8 thingy, he could protect the Monolith a bit and maybe kill some things before he died)

That would be hitting on a 6+ would it not?

Dunwich wrote:But Matt Ward says they are pretty cool in the Necron Tactica of the latest White Dwarf. Matt Ward would never lie to me.

To be fair, Mat Ward knows what he's talking about.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

loreweaver wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:C'tan can now walk through the monolith portal. This could let you move your c'tan accross the board instantly.

True, but they can't assault the turn they come out of the portal, so two things will happen.

1) Your Monolith will get melted by CC threats (hitting on a 4+) or an actual melta gun.
2) Your C'Tan will get shot before it has a chance to assault. (Although, if he was Lord of Fire and had something shooty, like the S4 Assault 8 thingy, he could protect the Monolith a bit and maybe kill some things before he died)

That would be hitting on a 6+ would it not?

Only if the Monolith Deepstriked in, but if it did that turn, then the C'Tan can't walk out of the gate on the same turn, as the beginning of the turn is over.

(If the Monolith Deepstrikes, it counts as moving at Cruising Speed, therefore is hit in CC on 6+. Otherwise, the Monolith can only move 6" so is hit on 4+. Always move your Monolith and don't allow people to get free hits).

I've ran a C'tan with Wraithing Worldscape and Gaze of Death in my Tremor Staff list for around 10 games against Kan Wall Orks, BW Orks, Storm Shield Deathwing, Phalanx Crons, Vanilla Space Marines, and Imp Gaurd and I always am quite impressed on how the C'tan performs. I tend to hold the big guy back behind my lines, usually out of LOS behind a monolith or a building and he serves as a fantasic counter assualt unit. He's bailed out my immortals and stalkers many times.

The thing is the C'tan like many other units in the game is that you have to play smart with him. Of course if you run him straight up the table he is going to get blasted to pieces by str 4 small arms fire. Any intelligent opponent will recognize that a 4++ is really easy to shoot down. You have to walk softly and carry a big stick! Typically my opponents have to target other higher priority targets over trying to dig a C'tan out from behind my lines usually while walking thru dangerous terrain and night fighting.

I will agree that it is bloody expensive. 270pts for the kit I described up above and he rarely scores his points back mathmatically, but he wins me games and that is priceless.

Please can I mention that C'tan also have good sides-
They are cool
They have loads of woulnd and an invulnerable save.
Necrodormis- if in close combat explodes- perfect for eldar or space marines
All the powers have differant uses, and you can make an all rounder C'tan.

I think you are wrong I have one and it has served me well, taking down 4 terminators, a librarian and three normal marines and a dreadnought. The cost of those is way more so you are wrong.

I completely agree with Kowbasher, yeah 270 is expensive but if you hold him back until late game he can get in and tarpit units with gaze of death. Writhing worldscape is great combined with orikan and tremor staves. The necron codex is all about synergy and combinations of units unlike MEQ which just throws grey hunters, palladins, assault marines, CSM, etc on the table and calls it a day. None of the necron units are good enough to just spam that one thing.

I agree with the "None of the Necron units are good enough to spam that one thing".

I think the beauty of the Necron book is all in building a list that works well with itself. It has the potential to produce some really neat ideas.

I agree with a lot of the C'Tan tactics described above, however, I think in a competitive game, the Writhing Worldscape tactic is just not good enough to win games. What do you do when your opponent doesn't move and just shoots your stuff? Most armies are going to outrange you with shooting and will happily stay in a 24-36" range area.

Also, the Writhing Worldscape combo's could get FAQ'd such that Orikan and the Tremor Staves don't work with it.

--

All that said, the army wide things the Necrons can do, like Writhing Worldscape and Imotek's Lightning, get more and more effective as the point totals rise. I think in a 2000 point match, Imotek is a must-have. That's a lot of things he can bolt.

Could get faq'd is not have been faq'd so if it happens it happens (unfortunately GW does have a habit of faq nerfing xenos armies). but the game has really moved away from complete gun lines. The only gun lines left are tau and guard (even guard move around a lot). It's worth it alone to prevent the storm raven from wanting to turbo boost first turn since it will then have a 2/3 chance of destroying itself (test when it moves and then test again when it lands). No the tactic wont win games but it helps, plus with gaze of death the c'tan can still tear apart marine squads and effectively tarpit boy squads.

note: by gunline I mean entire armies that never plan on leaving their deployment zone. There is still plenty of shooting out there with rocket and psycannon spam.

loreweaver wrote:I agree with the "None of the Necron units are good enough to spam that one thing".

I think the beauty of the Necron book is all in building a list that works well with itself. It has the potential to produce some really neat ideas.

I agree with a lot of the C'Tan tactics described above, however, I think in a competitive game, the Writhing Worldscape tactic is just not good enough to win games. What do you do when your opponent doesn't move and just shoots your stuff? Most armies are going to outrange you with shooting and will happily stay in a 24-36" range area.

Also, the Writhing Worldscape combo's could get FAQ'd such that Orikan and the Tremor Staves don't work with it.

--

All that said, the army wide things the Necrons can do, like Writhing Worldscape and Imotek's Lightning, get more and more effective as the point totals rise. I think in a 2000 point match, Imotek is a must-have. That's a lot of things he can bolt.

Really never had an issue with being outranged yet, even against Imp Guard. Night fighting for 2 turns usually allows me to walk up and grab objectives mid field and hold then down forcing him to try and move forward to stop me. Capture and Control and Killpoint games are more interesting tactically because then an army can truly sit back and let me have it. Then I have to carefully plan my deployment and hope that my night fighting keeps me safe, but I will have an up hill battle. Though that is what 40k is all about! Of course you're going to have to play armies that you are at a disadvantage. What fun would there be if you had the upperhand every game? To base if a unit is bad because 1/3 of your game match ups is not ideal is silly logic to me.

As for the competiveness of a WW/Orikan/Tremor list, I'm not entirely sure myself just yet. I've played a good chunk of games, but not nearly enough to make any true judgments. To be honest I've yet to see a battle report that actually shows off this type of list. All I see is MTO crons, scarab farms, and maybe a phalanx or two being written and video taped. Perhaps I should get off my lazy ass and actually record some of my games and you guys digest the results? Force me to finish painting everything as well!

As for WW/Orikan/Temor Staffs getting FAQ'd I'm not entirely sure how and why? Nothing in the language of the rules both rulebook and codex are gray. Perhaps how Orikan affects things deepstriking, but beyond that it's quite clear cut. Get hit with a tremor staff? You're in difficult terrain next turn. Writhing Worldscape on the board? Cool now it's dangerous terrain. I'm sure the author the book had that combo in mind while writing the rules based on all the fun combos and lists you can write with the Necron book.

*edited for spelling errors*

I'm going to be blunt, matt ward is slowed and has nothing in mind when he writes these things, Necrons are what happens when they actually assign editors to help matt ward, grey knights are what happens when you give him free reign.