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Ok for tournaments that don't require you to turn your list in in advance which of the following senerios is acceptable or unacceptable?

1) come to the tournament with 1 army and 1 list

2) come to the tournament with 2 lists and decided which to play when you see the general make up of the field. Like 1 army if you have 12 MEQ armies and 4 GEQ, and another if it is more evenly balanced.

3) come to a tournament with 2 lists and decide which one to use when you see your first opponent.

My thoughts, 1 is obviously ok and what we do normaly. 2 is boarderline, is it an unfair advantage or does it let you be more competative in an area where you don't know the meta/player pool? Those that do know the meta will design theirarmies accordingly so does this just even the field for a less exeperiences player? 3 seems pretty douchy but if you make the choice you are bound by it for the rest of the tournament and will have to live with it so at the end of the day you still have to consider the whole field.

Obviously, you cannot change lists during the tournament. Also It would be very easy to do 2 or 3 in secret but what is acceptable to you as a player?

Generally you have to say what you're playing when you sign up.

Personally, I would consider only option 1 to be acceptable. Option 2 seems distastefulto me, reagrdless of the justification, and (though this may sound a little strong) I find the idea of 3 to be despicable. Even if it doesn't strictly break the word of the rules, it certainly violates the spirit of the tournament, and it is extremely disrespectful to your opponent(s).

Edited for spelling.

The fact you even asked this is whats sad. The fact you are asking us to enable you to perform #2 and #3 is super sad. Re-examine why it is you need to cheat for a game of plastic soldiers.

I say one list as that's what I often find the point of tournaments to be. You come with a well rounded list (in whatever manner) and play it to the best of your abilities, using not only the advantages of how well you crafted that one list, but by how well you play it.

Bringing multiple lists and deciding on the spot partially takes away from it. But worse than that is when people make their lists at tournaments after observing everyone's army. It seems to happen at every tourny I go to at my local store, and is ultimately why I stopped playing my Troll army at tournaments. People see them and instantly pack their list with flaming.

Warmachine tournaments allow players to bring two separate lists as long as the lists belong to the same army. You can swap between the lists in-between games as well.

Of all the things Privateer did right, I enjoy this format. It would allow for more flexibility within tournies, and while it would be more expensive (ridiculously so in 40k/Fantasy) it could potentially expand upon the current tournament system in a positive manner.

1. Yes perfectly fine.

2. I have a slight problem with if you are choosing the army based upon your ability to win or lose the event. When I still had my Salamander army and it lived at the store I would sometimes change to playing that army and put my Space Wolves back in the car if there were 8-12 Space Wolf players there. I didn't do this because I thought my Salamanders would do better against SW I changed because I didn't want to add another SW army to a field where 50% of the people already had SW armies. I also cleared this with the T.O. and made it clear to the players in attendance what I was doing, all of whom were fine with it. If you are doing number 2 for any other reason than to add variety to a field then you probably are doing it for the wrong reasons. I showed up for the December tournament at our FLGS with my GK since the last few tournaments had had few GK players, turns out I was one of 9 playing GK out of a field of 16. I, and many others, found ourselves wishing my Salamanders hadn't been sold...

3. Is pretty dirty ethically speaking but I have seen it happen.

That sounds like an awful lot of work just to win at toy soldiers.

1 is fine.
2 is fine as well. I mean why not bring every army that 40k has to offer with every possible different layout while you are at it. Once you assess the field, you can go to your tractor trailer outside and bring in the army you need. But, on a serious note, if you really want to bring two lists and two armies and make a decision which one to use at the last minute, who is really going to know? Seems kinda sad though.

As for 3, what happens when your opponent does the exact same thing and you start an endless loop of army changing as you both try to outmaneuver your opponent instead of actually playing the game?

Green is Best! wrote:

As for 3, what happens when your opponent does the exact same thing and you start an endless loop of army changing as you both try to outmaneuver your opponent instead of actually playing the game?

I would love to watch a video of that.

Well, most tournaments have rules about #3, usually you submit a roster prior to the event.

As for #2... I'm surprised so many people think it's unfair. I've done something similar when traveling to a new store for a tournament. I had no clue what the local metagame was like, and prepared two lists. When I showed up and saw nearly all MEQs... I knew what list to use.

1. From my experience, this is the commonly used system for anything from a Grand Tournment to a single day event. Typically you have to turn the list in before the day of the event to check for points, etc. The events that you are typically showing up with a uncheck list that day tend to be the "Warm Up" events. IE those events typically are just prep games for upcoming big tournments, like at Showcase. And generally... if you are fudging your list at those prepare to get caught and laughed at.

2. This is typically the style at Warmachine events. People should be discouraged on doing this day of for a variaty of reasons at 40k / WFB. A lot of guys at events I goto, have a display board with more then their army. They have a list available for every opponent, with lots of models that are "scenic" for their display board. My board typically has a lot of models which are the just in case models. If your trying to rate your list off what's on my display board go right ahead... but typically there are 9-10 additional models who stay right on that board to replace models that break during games. If someone is trying to gain a Rd1 advantage... any veteran will tell you Rd 1 match ups can change 5-6 times at any event for a variety of reasons. Play what you bring and practice with.

3. Yea.. no thank you. Kind seems a little shady the "i'm going to try to counter what I see first." If you do not kabosh that you run into guys like me. I've got Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Demon's, and Guard. I can bring more then 1 army. What's to stop 1 opponent flip through army lists which are different then plunk down a list and say "Huzzah my AP3 army for the win." Then have gamer 2 going to the car, and plunk down my Orks and say "I see your AP3 and WAAAGH you." You will fun into a counter cheesy git with cheesy git. Just play it as section 1 for sanity of all parties involved.

Doing #2 is a standard practice at Magic tournaments. Plan to use one deck, get to the site, see that everybody is playing a deck that smashes yours, and audible before the Deck Registration. But once you register, there's no sneaky business.

A tournament should expect you to submit your list the night before if they don't want people coming in with multiple lists. If you audible to an entirely different army, it is kind of stupid, just based on the amount of transport required... but if you're willing, I see no reason that it should be frowned upon.

Should I be punished for showing up to a tourney with Strict Anti-MEQ, just because I knew beforehand it was what people are playing? It's the same idea, just a shorter time frame.

3 is disgusting, 1 is unnaceptable!!! (joking )

2 is acceptable if you are doing it for the fun, not for the victory. For example, you bring a sisters/salamanders army full of template weapons and found a complete a mechanized set around players, or even if you play a high competitive army and found that other player are much more tied to the fun and fluff....

The local tournaments I've played request early sign up and allow you to list which army you plan to bring, but don't hold you to it and also let you put TBA (to be announced) down instead.We get a lot of walk-ins in the area that decide day-of whether they're going to participate or not and generally army lists are not checked except by your opponent.

I usually bring two armies with me to tourney, typically Eldar and Marines. I'll usually have decided which army I'm going to play with, but if I get there and there's more than a few of that army then I'll switch to provide some variety to the event.

In my case, I'm not choosing what to play according to the metagame. I don't list-tailor against the prevailing flavor of the month and don't play that kind of army myself - I'm an average-ranking player and have little aspirations to reach the upper eschelons of scoring as long as I have fun. I wouldn't put it past someone to do so, though.

1. What I do.

2. I say have two lists prepared for a tournament is cool, but you need to decide on one before you register/hand over money.

3. I think this is cutting it way too close and will create more enemies than friends, if someone finds out what you did.

I think this is a legitimate question for people attending a tournament at a LGS they normally don't go to. If you don't know the local meta or you don't know the unspoken rules of the group, then it's good to come prepared. However, most tournaments I've been to require you to submit a list as you register so #3 is usually not possible.

But generally speaking, if one feels the need to hide what he/she is about to do, then he/she probably shouldn't do it.

I think you should take just one list, I think anything else just seems OTT. For local tournaments (where you actually going to be able to see the other armies easier, if you go to a 100+ person tournament, its not going to work anyway?) it just seems like a really wrong thing to do, as you probably know the people your playing against. Just work out your best list for your army in tournament prep, and if your a good player you have a good chance of winning anyway don't you?

Well, as a strategy, I'm convinced that #1 is the best. Play the list you know the best, not the one you think will do better against the competition.

Polonius wrote:Well, as a strategy, I'm convinced that #1 is the best. Play the list you know the best, not the one you think will do better against the competition.

QFT. I play the list I have the competence and confidence with over anything else. I NEVER played BA competitively because if I was going to play Marines I knew how to use my Salamanders and Space Wolves. I wouldn't show up and say "Hmm... looks like a lot of AP4+ weaponry out there today, FNP BA Spam it is!" I just played what I felt comfortable with, usually Space Wolves or Salamanders and that decision was made prior to leaving the house. List included.

I'd say it's all down to a) what you're comfortable with and b) what the nature of the tournament is.

In bragging-rights tournies (re: limited or no prize support) -- or if you're just throwing dice with your friends -- it undermines the goal of the occasion to bring multiple lists and then drop the best counter to the field on your opponents. (I want to note that such behavior is a little different from bringing the toughest list you can bring to a gathering, or designing a list to attack known weaknesses in a metagame.)

But in highly competitive events, that strikes me as something that's just part and parcel with the tourney. Players will be looking to eke out any advantage they can. If you're not comfortable with that, don't do it, but be prepared because others can (and will). (This means keeping your list secret until the last possible moment, too.)

I guess that dodges the question of whether last-minute metagaming is ethical or not; I think it's acceptable, if a little unsporting. I'd also argue that it's poor form to push the competitive edge where it's not needed or welcome.

As always, it IS clearly unethical to violate the rules of any tourney, including any rules about this kind of behavior.

I have never played or even seen a tournament that did not require your list during your registration

I will regularly do sort of #2 in smaller Local Store tournaments.
Basically I usually bring 3 or 4 armies with a list for each one. Once I get there and see which one no one is playing then I use that army to add variety. If all of the armies I brought are already in use I let one of the players randomly draw my list from the rosters and that is what I play for the day.

Matt Varnish wrote:The fact you even asked this is whats sad. The fact you are asking us to enable you to perform #2 and #3 is super sad. Re-examine why it is you need to cheat for a game of plastic soldiers.

You need to relax a little and calm down. Poster never said he was asking so that he could do it. Original poster just asked a question next time try not to jump all over someone.

1. How I play.

2. Whatever in my opinion. Still seems like you would be a bit of a douche doing this.

3. Pretty messed up. I wouldn't say it is necessarily cheating but you are getting as close as you can in my opinion. If I found out someone I knew did this I would certainly think less of them.