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Anybody care to give advice on playing 5th Ed. Space Wolves? I played mostly 3rd Ed. Wolves several years ago and I'm just getting back into it. My old tactics and models just aren't working. I was used to a quick, multi-attack force that just kept rolling dice all day long reinforced by a barrage of heavy support. This just doesn't work any more.

I'd appreciate any good advice and/or ideas. I've been impressed by the Drop Pod Assault rule and the Rune Priest's psyker abilities. I mostly want to stay mobile and at least handle myself in a fight. 'Tis a shame Wolves aren't what they used to be in H2H combat.

Thanx.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot to mention - most of the games I'll be playing are only going to be around 1000-1500 points.

1) Long Fangs with MLs.
2) Put everything in Rhinos or Razorbacks
3) win.

Welcome to dakkadakka!

1) long fangs!

jugger79 wrote:Anybody care to give advice on playing 5th Ed. Space Wolves? I played mostly 3rd Ed. Wolves several years ago and I'm just getting back into it. My old tactics and models just aren't working. I was used to a quick, multi-attack force that just kept rolling dice all day long reinforced by a barrage of heavy support. This just doesn't work any more.

I'd appreciate any good advice and/or ideas. I've been impressed by the Drop Pod Assault rule and the Rune Priest's psyker abilities. I mostly want to stay mobile and at least handle myself in a fight. 'Tis a shame Wolves aren't what they used to be in H2H combat.

Thanx.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot to mention - most of the games I'll be playing are only going to be around 1000-1500 points.

Long Fangs with MLs are too cheap to give up. And there is almost no SW list (maybe there are exceptions i cannot think of) that cannot be complemented with MLs as supporting fire.

Given that 5 Grey Hunters can take a special weapon (normally take melta), MSU builds are very popular for the SW codex. And since you want to be mobile, Razor spam + small squad of GHs is the way to go. But be prepared as this is the standard list in the "market", it can be pretty boring.

Really good advice thanks guys. Already see the potential.

What are anyone's thoughts on Wolf Scouts.

You've got a 2/3rds chance of having a unit with a meltagun and meltabombs come onto the board from your opponent's table edge. Parking lots hate them. Alternatively, give them a missile launcher and infiltrate 'em into cover. Your opponent's entire deployment will be screwed up.

Build around your Grey Hunters.

And really that's it. You have two troop choices. The reasons for taking Blood Claws (multiple power weapons) no longer apply and they only have 1 extra attack over Grey hunters on the charge now, instead of double the number of attacks (unless you were the type that switched out Bolters for Bolt Pistol/CCW in 3E but I never met anyone who did this). The WS3 makes them too vulnerable in combat to other MEQ armies. Stick with Grey Hunters.

And that said, let's repeat: build around your Grey Hunters.

The Codex is built this way. Pretty much you get your core of troops (2-4 Grey Hunter packs usually, depending on the size of the game) and everything else builds around it to support it. The first choice is mechanized vs footslogging. Transports are incredibly cheap now. Instead of taking a 10 man squad, you take a 8 man squad and now you can afford a Rhino. Even better, they'll have room for Wolf Guard to be attached and an HQ to tag along.

Don't do Razorspam. Blood Angels do it better. Without FNP, 5 man MEQ squads are easy to eat up if they aren't in large numbers, and a 5 man Grey Hunter squad in a Razorback with anything more than Heavy Bolters costs almost the same as an 8 man squad in a Rhino. And yes, the 3 marines make a massive difference.

Also, don't skimp on your Grey Hunters. Wolf Standards are a must, as is the special weapon (Meltagun or Plasmagun). You can take Mark of the Wulfen and a Power Weapon at the same time giving you a lot of combat capability. Never take a Power Fist on a Grey Hunter, leave that for the Wolf Guard pack leader who will only cost 3 points more and come with a Combi-Melta/Plasma to boot.

If you opt to ignore transports and play a foot list you need to take Thunderwolf Cavalry and remember the Lone Wolf option in your Elites entry. The Lone Wolf can float around in the middle of your Grey Hunter packs and provide the S8 close combat punch they need against big nasties. The Thunderwolves are needed as a rapid response force. On foot you are slower, but the Thunderwolves will give you the oomph you need, provided you equip them right.

Always take Long Fangs. If you are mechanizing, give them the Razorbacks (not the Grey Hunters, or more than one or two Grey Hunter packs IMO). You don't have to do all Missile Launchers, but people online will always tell you you do. I run 3 HB and 2 Lascannons in two squads and one all Missile Launcher squad and I've proxied all Missile Launchers before. I personally haven't noticed a massive difference in performance.

Almost always take Rune Priests. They're the most cost effective HQ choice you have and between their powers and Chooser of the Slain they are just a pain for your opponent.

Almost always take Wolf Scouts and outflank them. At least have one Meltagun on them and a 5 man squad. At most, I'd leave them 5 man but load them up with Power Weapons and Mark of the Wulfen. You don't always need anti-tank from the enemy rear after all, but when you do you'll be surprised at the carnage you can sow.

Your 3E tactics should still work basically. 3E was the day of the Rhino Rush. Instead of Blood Claws use Grey Hunters and instead of charging into combat, rapid fire. Just stay in the Rhino until you have targets. You can pop Meltagun/Plasma gun shots from the Fire Point at the top of the Rhino with the 1-2 special weapons. Only dismount when you have infantry to shoot.

Keep in mind that Movement is the most important phase now, followed by Shooting. The Assault Phase is more decisive and final, but the game isn't decided there anymore.

Take a rune priest or two no upgrades. Living Lightning and chooser and Lightning and whatever else you like.

3 or so Grey Hunter squads should do you well.
2 squads of wolf scouts with meltabombs and combi-melta
wolf guard pack to lead the hunters, one with CML in TDA.
couple of long fang packs, home for the TDA CML WG.
Everything in rhinos or las/plas backs.

If you've got any points leftover, a landspeeder or two.

It might be 5th edition and not the wolves that is the problem.

cowmonaut wrote:Don't do Razorspam. Blood Angels do it better. Without FNP, 5 man MEQ squads are easy to eat up if they aren't in large numbers, and a 5 man Grey Hunter squad in a Razorback with anything more than Heavy Bolters costs almost the same as an 8 man squad in a Rhino. And yes, the 3 marines make a massive difference.

Disagree. 5 man assault squad with melta and las/plas fast razor cost 165 points. 5 man GH squad with melta and las/plas razor cost 150 points. So for lesser points, the SW squad pack the same firepower (and looking at just firepower alone of cost) as the BA squad.
Other things taken into consideration :-
1) The BA squad has FNP yes, but still you have to be around the priest.
2) The GHs has 1 more attack than the BA assault marine.
3) And EVEN IF BA do it better, it doesn't mean SWs cannot do it well. So this statement is kind of misleading. The 2 are mutually exclusive.

@ OP : So if you are going MSU razor spam, just take 5 GHs, and give them a meltagun, nothing else.

cowmonaut wrote:Always take Long Fangs. If you are mechanizing, give them the Razorbacks (not the Grey Hunters, or more than one or two Grey Hunter packs IMO). You don't have to do all Missile Launchers, but people online will always tell you you do. I run 3 HB and 2 Lascannons in two squads and one all Missile Launcher squad and I've proxied all Missile Launchers before. I personally haven't noticed a massive difference in performance.

There is no reason not to take Missile over Lasc, for 15 points cheaper.
1) Missile has duality
2) There is almost no vehs that the Lasc can deal with that the Missile cannot. And Lascs are not used to shoot at AV14. Melta are used for that role.
3) Yes, you may want some AP2. That's where your Las/Plas razors come in.

Thanks guys for all the help so keep it coming. I took your advice and played a proxy army. I did considerably better even though the dice betrayed me. The Long Fangs with ML mixed with a couple of HB was a constant barrage and a lot of Necrons paid dearly for it. It was the first time that I had actual fun playing 5th edition.

If you are looking at fun options then pretty much anything goes. Thunderwolves, Lone Wolves, Wolf Scouts...all are great to play and you can build a list that suits you while having fun. However, if you are looking at pure cookie cutter tournament style that beats face you can't really do much better than:

Rune Priest

5 Grey Hunters
melta gun
Las Plaz Razorback

5 Grey Hunters
melta gun
Las Plaz Razorback

5 Grey Hunters
melta gun
Las Plaz Razorback

5 Grey Hunters
melta gun
Las Plaz Razorback

6 Long Fangs
5 Missile Launchers
Las Plas Razorback

6 Long Fangs
5 Missile Launchers
Las Plas Razorback

6 Long Fangs
5 Missile Launchers
Las Plas Razorback

That takes you to 1365pts and gives you a little freedom to add fill out at 1500 or add some flavour above that.

If you like blood claws there is still a way for them to be effective. Put a full 15 of them into a land raider alongside a wolf priest. The re-roll makes them much more effective and they destroy most things they charge.

There are PLENTY of viable options for Space Wolves; much more than just Long Fangs and Razorbacks.
Honestly, avoid loading up on too many upgrades and avoid Ulrik, Iron Priests, Skyclaws and Whirlwinds for most situations and you should be semi-competitive at least. Whilst Long Fangs etc. are very good units, they're not the only usable units in the Codex; there are plenty of viable options.

Ultimately Grey Hunters should form the core of any Space Wolf army (in rhinos if possible), with an ample smattering of long-ranged support (Dreads/ Long Fangs/ Predators/ Land Speeder Typhoon) or close-ranged support (Wolf Guard/ Vindicators/ Scouts/ Blood Claws) as desired.
There's an unfinished tactica in my sig that may help...

CoI wrote:If you like blood claws there is still a way for them to be effective. Put a full 15 of them into a land raider alongside a wolf priest. The re-roll makes them much more effective and they destroy most things they charge.

I agree. This is the best use of blood claws. I like them because I play against a lot of WS 4, which even regular grey hunters need "4s" to hit. 60 attacks with a re roll is devastating.

Don't forget the major Space Wolf weakness. If any army rubs their belly the Wolves lose their armor save. lol