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Starting a Skaven army, as o fthe moment i have:

Island of Blood Skaven:
40 Clan Rats (18 spears, 2 musician, 2 banner, 18 hand weapons,
Warlock Engineer
Warlord
2 Rat Ogres w/ pack master
2 weapon teams (forget what they are)

and a Warp Fire Cannon

i plan on getting a Battalion with more clan rats and Ogres and another Warpfire cannon, what i wanna know is what is a good starting point for about 1000 points also is Skaven Horde formations good at this level or should i leave them at ranks of 5?

At 1000pts, I've run the following with success:

- Warlord + halberd + Foul Pendant (123)

- Warlock Engineer + lvl2 + Doomrocket (130)
- Chieftain + bsb + halberd + Charmed Shield + Talisman of Endurance (107)

- 32 Clanrats + shields + full command )164)
- 32 Clanrats + shields + full command )164)
- 50 Skavenslaves + musician (102)
- 5 Giant Rats + Packmaster (23)

- 6 Plague Censer Bearers (96)

- 1 Warp Lightning Cannon (90)

I've swapped out the Warlord, Censer Bearers, and/or Cannon for two Cannons, units of two Rat Ogres, and/or Gutter Runners with Poison slings.

I would never get a Warpfire Thrower unless I've already got at least one Warp Lightning Cannon. It's more fragile, harder to use, and less reliable. But stripping regeneration is nice.

Rat Ogres can be really good at this level. Just watch out for high S high I models. I've found Censer Bearers to be a better buy overall, because they pack more S5 attacks/point (3 re-rolled for 16pts versus 4 and a stomp for 40pts).

Running in Horde formation can work, but that's the sort of thing you'll want to decide when you see your opponent's battle line, and maybe your spell selection. If you roll up Death Frenzy and/or your opponent doesn't have much in the way of big blocks of infantry (or medium blocks of super-killy infantry), I'd go Horde. Otherwise, bus-formation is probably best.

Final note- go spears or shields with Clanrats, but not both. At 1000pts, it really is a toss-up as to which is better. I usually go with shields, since I'll see that benefit 'til the unit's gone. But I' thinking about trying spears in a few games.
On that- don't feel like you need to field your models like this or that because of how they look. As long as most of the unit looks the part, it's fine. Better, I'd say; I like the rag-tag look.

would you use Spears and Shields at a certain point i only ask because i have the IoB set and they have both

+.5 pts/model for +1 armour is usually not worth it. Against S4 and less, maybe. Maybe.

ok so this is what i am thinking then:

Warlord + halberd + Foul Pendant

Warlock Engineer + lvl2 + Doomrocket (130)

20 Stormvermin Halberds and Shield

40 Clanrats, Full command, Shields

40 Clan Rats Full Command Spears

40 Slaves w/ Musician

2x Warpfire Cannon

I know this is prolly not 1000 points and it is prolly way off but i am thinking ahead would this kinda group be useful? I am also thinking about Jezzils what yall think?

Actually what you have there weighs in at 1,075 points. I do have a couple thoughts for you:

1. A chieftain BSB should be an auto-include. The reroll to Ld checks is far to useful to pass up. I usually kit mine with a ward save (Talisman of Preservation or Talisman of Endurance) and the Charmed Shield. A halberd makes him a bit more killy as well.

2. Shields on the Stormvermin are okay, but keep in mind they won't function in CC as the Halberd is a two-handed weapon.

3. 2x Warp Lightning Cannon = Excellent choice. Might earn you some dirty looks at 1,000 points (WLCs are nasty and cheap). You may find you do run out of targets early on enough that you can drop to one; that said I usually have 2.

4. Jezzails are a bit hit-or-miss; sadly, mostly miss. Their BS is mediocre, and at the high point cost per base they really just aren't contributing as much as their cost would imply. I really do love the models though.

5. A few popular units that I've seen:
a. A small unit of Gutter Runners with poisoned slings for taking out enemy war machines
b. A small (8-10) unit of Poisoned Wind Globadiers; they can throw into any combat and since Clan Rats aren't the killiest things in the world, they add a nice bit of punch to the force. Ignoring armor is a plus.
c. "Rat Dart" - a minimum size unit of giant rats with a pack master. 23 points throwing out 6 with a super tiny 3x2 foot print. I haven't used it yet myself, but I've read good things.

6. Welcome to the Under Empire! There is a position of honor available for you right in front of these Clan Rats, you'll get first share of the treasure, I totally promise!

streamdragon wrote:6. Welcome to the Under Empire! There is a position of honor available for you right in front of these Clan Rats, you'll get first share of the treasure, I totally promise!

What?

Also thank you for the advise, i am hearing 2 sides to the stormvermin as well are they just a mediocore unit or are they really worth having?

Haha, it's from a blurb in the Skaven Army Book where a Warlord is promising first spoils to numerous chieftains in return for loyalty, hoping that none of them survive.

I've never tried Stormvermin myself. On the one hand, they're a little more deadly than regular clan rats with WS4 and Halberds, on the other hand they don't get Parry! from the Hand Weapon/Shield that Clan Rats can have and cost a few points more per model. I believe Boss Salvage runs some Stormvermin units successfully, and I've been looking to try them out myself.

One thing to keep in mind is that they are one of three units in the Skaven Army book that can take a Magic Banner, which is sort of huge when one of those is the BSB himself.

Stormvermin can be solid. They offer an extra punch, but they die in droves. Still, WS4 S4 I5 and Death Frenzy can equal out to be a lot of dead guys. I'd drop the shields, though, and grab three more guys instead. I wouldn't bother running them smaller than 25.

A BSB, as said, is a must.

Also, are those Warpfire Throwers or are they Warp Lightning Cannons? Big difference. The cannons are by far the best. For 20 more points, you ignore armour, cause d6 wounds, have an infinitely better range, and can't get killed by small handfuls of arrows. The 'Throwers are good against Regen, though, so that's something. Then again, I did watch a guy kill his own A-bomb with a miraculously unlucky Misfire!...

You could probably drop 10 Clanrats total, or even from each unit, if you really want some points for other toys.

they are the warp lightning cannnons sorry for the typo, yea i am looking at the stormvermin and i like the models alot as well, i was thinking about using them and attaching the warlord for some extra punch, i have been working on some 1500 point lists as well to kinda get myself to a point where i know what i need to buy

with the iob blood and cannon in mind to start

Lord

Warlord shield of distraction +2A weapon 145 (or whatever gear you prefer)

Heroes

Engineer lvl2 warp energy condenser 120

Core

20 Clan Rats fc shields 110
warpfire thrower 70
20 Clan Rats fc shields 110
poison wind mortar 65

(mix the spears about 50/50 with the hand weapon guys and clarify to your opponent they dont have spears)

Special

2 Rat Ogres pack master 88

Rare

Warp Lightning Cannon 90

798 points

if you buy the battalion gets you 40 more clan rats 20 plague monks 2 more rat ogres

bump up the clan rats to 30 each (90)

use the monks as slaves and the extra clan rats added to the slaves for 40 slaves w/shields (100)

double your rat ogres (88)

pick up another warp lightning cannon (90)

brings you a to 1166
add in a bsb and your ready for 1250 point games

getting a grey seer(dreaded 13th spell rocks on against small units if you can get it off) later on will help a lot in larger games i personally run queek and his storm vermin in a 30-40 block with 2 lvl2 engineers and dual doomwheels for fun unpredictable games usually major victory or epic fails not too much in between

Unless you need to satisfy minimum Core (which should not be a problem for Skaven), I'd only get weapon teams after I've maxed out my Rare selection. The Cannon is better by far.

Keep your Warlord well protected. At 1000pts games, I still think that WS6 S4 A4 I7 only needs a 3pt halberd to be effective.

And the Doomrocket. Always and forever. If I could, I'd run Rocketeirs and nothing else. 44 in a 2000pt list.

GreyTauKnight wrote:

streamdragon wrote:6. Welcome to the Under Empire! There is a position of honor available for you right in front of these Clan Rats, you'll get first share of the treasure, I totally promise!

What?

Also thank you for the advise, i am hearing 2 sides to the stormvermin as well are they just a mediocore unit or are they really worth having?

Stormvermin + frenzy or death frenzy = ... pleasurable to watch.

As combat works on initiative rather then who charged first nowdays, stormvermin are your highest initiative unit and they're wielding halberds. They can be very effective but I personally wont put them face to face with a unit and I only use 20 in 2000pts, I wouldn't recommend them in 1000pts I think though on the whole plague monks are better, 3atks and plague banner reroll miss and failed wounds etc. Will decimate an entire unit relatively quickly, which is good as theyll usually be fighting last at initiative 10.

Would possibly suggest stacking your group out with slaves as well though thats just my view, in 1000pts slaves can be really annoying for people to deal with because unit size usually isn't as big as it is in larger games.

Rat ogres are iffy in larger games for me as well, cant comment on small games.

At 1k, I use a very competitive list, due to my opponents:

Grey Seer
BSB w/ Shield

30 Clanrats w/ Full Command, Shields

40 Slaves w/ Shields

40 Slaves w/ Shields

6 Gutter Runners w/ Slings + Poison

Hell Pit Abomination


The Grey Seer seems like overkill at this level, but munch your Warpstone Tokens and have a go at casting Dreaded Thirteenth (miscasts be damned) at least once per game, because at this point level most units are small. The look on your opponent's face if it works and you replace his whole unit with rats is priceless. The Gutter Runners threaten lone characters or War Machines (or in my case, a Dark Elf Sorceress with the Pendant of Bull ) and the HPA is there to essentially spatter carnage everywhere. Beware the spells that can one-shot it, though. i.e. Pit of Shades. Tailor your Grey Seer's magic to whatever you're fighting. I'd suggest Plague for T3 Opponents (i.e. Elves, other Skaven, etc.).

The IoB Clanrats can be used as Slaves, just paint them in all brown robes or make sure your opponent knows what's what. Don't buy GW's Gutter Runners, they're awful. You could easily convert some from a plastic Clanrat boxed set. I used the ones with no armor and painted them in all black robes, stuck a dagger in their left hand, and done.

Rat Ogres are going to draw a lot of fire, and they tend to be fragile. I don't use them. The HPA will draw fire too - but the difference is, it has a good chance of surviving.

Slaves should never have shields. If you're going up against S3 missile fire and/or S3 close combat attacks, they can prove worth while, but only by a very slight margin; more bodies is better for nearly every situation, and in the few it isn't, it's barely worse.
Slaves should always have musicians, though. Fast Reform is a great asset for big units, and at 2pts, there's zero reason to swap out one body for the ability.

The A-bomb is something I've played around with a few times. I've usually found that, at 1000pts, he either cripples my opponent or gives up 25% of my points. If my enemy's packing fire, he'll probably go down fast, since there aren't that many targets at 1000pts.
Basically, if your opponent can handle an A-bomb, he'll do so, and the poor beastie won't do much. If there's no flaming, well, then you're sittin' pretty. Of course, most people will bring some fire if they can...

Gutter Runners with Poisoned Attacks and slings are awesome. At 1000pts, not sure if they'll have enough targets though. When I ran a Doomwheel, my death squad of five Gutter Runners took out the Reaper/Repeater Bolt Throwers and the like I was running into. But, without a war machine or two to throw poisoned rocks at (how does that work again?), I've found that they don't do much good, either causing some casualties in too-big units, or causing next to no damage in smaller, tougher ones.

Finally, I'd have to say no to the Grey Seer at this level. I've played against it a few times, and he usually ends up netting a fistful of points and giving up even more. 340 VP's for killing your general is hard to recover from, and with a 6+ Regen save at best, that T4 W3 isn't going to last long. A savy player should be able to cut, blast, or sneak their way through your (thin, by Skaven standards) battle line to your oh-so-squishy general.

Warpsolution wrote:Slaves should never have shields. If you're going up against S3 missile fire and/or S3 close combat attacks, they can prove worth while, but only by a very slight margin; more bodies is better for nearly every situation, and in the few it isn't, it's barely worse.

There's probably Mathhammer behind this to back you up. You're probably right. But most of my opponents are S3/T3. i.e. Corsairs w/ Frenzy. I gave my Slaves shields so they have some kind of defense more than just bodies. Max combat res bonus you can get for ranks is +3, but there's no cap on combat res bonus for Wounds. That's how I justified it. Plus that 6++ Parry Save has come in incredibly handy with some luck. I guess this is more of a "my preference" thing.

Warpsolution wrote:The A-bomb is something I've played around with a few times. I've usually found that, at 1000pts, he either cripples my opponent or gives up 25% of my points. If my enemy's packing fire, he'll probably go down fast, since there aren't that many targets at 1000pts.

He draws a lot of fire, yes. Could that kill him? Maybe. It depends on what your opponent has/takes. But the things reputation intimidates players, so they can end up focusing on killing that, which can give you freedom elsewhere, as people tend to panic when they see it as the #1 threat on the board. I considered dropping him or switching it up for 2 WLC's, but I just love the model so much, I'm rather attached to it.

Warpsolution wrote:Gutter Runners with Poisoned Attacks and slings are awesome. At 1000pts, not sure if they'll have enough targets though. When I ran a Doomwheel, my death squad of five Gutter Runners took out the Reaper/Repeater Bolt Throwers and the like I was running into. But, without a war machine or two to throw poisoned rocks at (how does that work again?), I've found that they don't do much good, either causing some casualties in too-big units, or causing next to no damage in smaller, tougher ones.

Ambushers. Not just the poisoned slings (pointy rocks dipped in poison), but in CC as well. 2 Attacks each with a decent WS (for Skaven) and Poison to boot, showing up out of nowhere and taking a flank or suicide rushing an enemy wizard/bunker unit and assassinating a general or what have you can make them totally worth it, in my opinion.

Warpsolution wrote:Finally, I'd have to say no to the Grey Seer at this level. I've played against it a few times, and he usually ends up netting a fistful of points and giving up even more. 340 VP's for killing your general is hard to recover from, and with a 6+ Regen save at best, that T4 W3 isn't going to last long. A savy player should be able to cut, blast, or sneak their way through your (thin, by Skaven standards) battle line to your oh-so-squishy general.

You never want him in combat. They could get to him, but a clever general can also avoid this. Remember at 1,000 pts. I don't know of any other race that could field a Level 4 as potent as a Grey Seer at this point value. Most people field Level 2's at this level, meaning you'll have a lot of control over the Magic phase.

Just my two cents.

I always encourage new skaven players to get at least two or three IoB worth of rats. It gives you plenty of rats, rat ogres, weapons teams, and engineers.

As for tactics, run slaves naked and give them a musician. I've seen attempts at putting a naked engineer with them for the leadership but am still undecided on that for my own army. Clanrats get spears as they generally bunker your characters.

I like to convert gutter runners from the Night Runners box. I put capes on my Gutter Runners and the Night Runners go without. The wavy sword on the sprue gets used as the weeping blade.

few things and if people can help clarify that would be great

-Grey Seer, he is a possibility so we will see, perhaps i can just proxy it.

-Clanrats and Spears; at just spears better or are shields?

I played against a Seer 100pt list. Doomrocket+Warp Lightning Cannon took him out on the first turn in our first game, then I need to run him off with a Rat Dart in the second on, like, turn four (he'd done a lot of damage at that point), and then the Cannon again in our third game on turn two.
I really doubt you'd be able to keep him out of combat and/or range of shooting and magic, unless you set up your whole list to do so. I dunno. It pays big or fails big, and you get dirty looks for it. I'd rather play the odds and make less people angry.

Slaves with shields: one in six parry saves prevent a wound. Six shields cost 3pts. One slave costs 2pts. At S3, you get an armour save too, so you're spending 1.5pts to save 2, which is better. But since that situation is so rare and the difference isn't much anyway, you're better off going with more bodies.

As far as the A-bomb goes, when I said "fire", I was referring to flaming attacks. If your opponent has flaming attacks, he's going to use them on your A-bomb, since he's obviously the best target, and he'll probably get messed up. Dwarfs, Brettonians, maybe High Elves with the flaming banner, other Skaven; it's a risky move. But he's arguably the most killy monster in the game.

Gutter Runners can do that stuff, but I'd rather spend 6 more points and get that many plus one Plague Censer Bearers.

Shields versus spears: at this point level, spears might be a better choice, since they can help you get s'more kills. Beyond that, I see a lot of people use shields to keep them Steadfast longer, letting the good stuff kill the enemy. I use shields almost exclusively; the difference is so incredibly small it doesn't matter much, but my shields work on the charge, protect me from shooting, and function down to the last rat, rather than fifteen. Still, wounds done are worth more than wounds prevented; playing defensive on its own won't win you the game. And it's not like my Clanrats are going to last much longer with 14 or less of them in the unit anyway. Try 'em both out, see what you like. Maybe a unit of each?

I actually run my clanrats naked, the only real reason I see in them is that they are a unit that doesn't care if the slaves get ripped to pieces and they allow me to field weapons teams on them at only 4pts per person.

Yes I use them to bunker because they and characters in them don't go off as casualties when they do eventually run but the only real difference between them comes from 1WS, 1BS and 3LD (another reason you bunker with them)

But beyond that they are simply glorified slaves. At some point I may decide to give them spears, never shields a 6+ parry doesn't interest me at all on clanrats.

for 1/2pt per model its 15pts per unit, fielding 2 units of 30 gives me 30pts for either shields or not. That 30pts alone is half a weapons team or half a nightrunner group of 5 or a squad of 7 giant rats, or the greater part of 2/3rds of a rat ogre.

Which I find usually better value for points to use the points elsewhere, they'll fight in the front 2 ranks anyway an extra one or so for clanrats isn't going to make or break a game, not on clanrats.

It's also the same value (give or take 5pts) as a power scroll for your grey seer.

I have though, modelled all mine with shields and spears because, I never know when they day may come that I can say that not running them naked is value for points.

One in six parry saves prevents a wound. Six shields cost 3pts. One Clanrat costs 4. That's not even considering the extra protection via armour.

Thus, shields are a more durable buy than extra bodies for their cost.