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Ecstasy in Service wrote:Wait...So I sould only be able to use my shield when the enemy is in my face? if someone is shooting at me I can't block it with my shield? I disagree with this, storm shields should work for both range and combat saves.

I don't see a to change them, as a marine player and from looking at plenty of battle reports, it is easy to see how storm shields are not the most badass things out there. For real, Termis.s are great but can go down just like everything else. Hit them with enough attacks and sooner or later they go down.

I agree that it shouldn't just apply to close combat, but I don't agree with your statement/standing that they aren't a big issue. Look at higher profile tournaments or larger scale tournaments, the one unit you see almost every Marine player running is a Terminator Assault Squad. The thing is you say everything can be killed, well how do you kill something that gets a 2+ save normally and, if that isn't able to be taken, it gets a 3++ save instead?

Do the math a bit here. Let say a five man Terminator Assault Squad is going up against a 10 man Assault Squad. The assault squad gets first round, so they need 4+ to hit. They get 31 attacks on the charge and will hit on a 4+, so there's 16 attacks that hit roughly. Next they have to wound. Same Strength vs Toughness, so again, 4+, so 8 of those 16 attacks get through. Finally we have the saves. For the sake of argument we'll say the Sergeant had a Power Weapon on him and we'll say that two of his attacks got through, so there's 2 power weapon attacks and 6 normal attacks. The Terminator Assault squad gets 2+ saves against the 6 normal attacks, so we'll say 1 fails for the sake of argument. There's one Terminator down. The sergeant's power weapon attacks still have to get past a 3+ save and, odds are, both of the saves are going to be made. So, out of 31 attacks, only one attack managed to kill one Terminator. Now the terminators get to strike back.

8 Thunder Hammer attacks, so 4 will hit (4+ to hit). Next comes the to-wound rolls. Each attack hits at Strength 8, so they need 2+ to wound. Odds are none of those attacks are not going to wound, but for the sake of argument we'll say that one fails to wound. Next, armour saves, except the Assault Squad doesn't get armour saves, so there's 3 dead Assault Marines. Three dead and they both A) Didn't charge and B) struck last still. If the assault squad was really unlucky they were stunned by the Thunder Hammers as well.

Now just imagine that Terminator Assault Squad was 10 Terminators in size and they actually got to charge. Even if they lose one that's 27 Thunder Hammer attacks coming at that Assault Squad. The math doesn't stack up in the assault squad's favor and, odds are, that Assault Squad is dead in the first turn of that assault. Even if you focus fire them odds are you're not going to get many of them unless you have an abundance of plasma cannons or lascannons (or equivalent) weapons on your side of the field.

In the end, Terminator Assault Squads are just too good for their points cost, so good that they make tactical Terminator Squads pretty dull and useless in comparison. Thus, in my opinion, either keep Storm Shields the way they are and increase their points costs (and for Terminator Assault Squads, make the squad pay +5 points per model to upgrade from Lightning Claws to a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield) or, as the original poster said, make them give +1 Invulnerable Save or 5+ invulnerable save.

The problem with changing the Storm Shields themselves is that you have so many Marine armies that use that wargear, meaning errata for several books would be required and the points values in other books would no longer be accurate.

The best thing to do would be to simply change Assault Terminators so that by default they start with Lightning Claws, to which you can upgrade for a SS/PW for 5 points per model, SS/PF for 10 points per model, or SS/TH or SS/CF for 15 points per model. This way there is a definite trade-off, you're losing +1 Attack and taking on more points for the benefit of added survivability (and lethality, depending on how many more points you're willing to spend). Simple solution. I don't know about you guys but I'd still take SS/TH Termies for 55 points a shot, but the choice wouldn't be as obvious or clear-cut as it is now when compared to Tactical Terminators or to Lightning Claw-equipped Assault Terminators. Even for a squad of five Assault Terminators with SS/TH, that adds up to 75 extra points right there (almost enough for another Tactical Squad).

However I do think Tactical Terminators could use some love too. Would like to see them dropped to 35 points per model and be equipped with Storm Bolters and Power Weapons, allowing upgrades into Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Chainfists for increasing points costs (I like options).