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I've just picked up VC and so far I've just been painting cool models. Though I don't play that often, I want to try and put together a hard nosed list. The goal is to start with medium to small units and have boosted by spells in the first few turns of the game.

Lords:

Master Necro *goes with 20 skellies
-lvl4, lore of vampires
-talisman of preservation
-master of the dead

Heros:

Vampire, general *goes with the black knights
-barded nightmare
-lvl 2, lore of vampires
-creatures of the night
-dark acolyte
-shiled
-heavy armor
-dawn stone

Vampire *also goes with the black knights
-barded nightmare
-lvl 2, lore of vampires
-creatures of the night
-dark acolyte
-e-shield
-heavy armor

Core:

30 skellies
-spears
-muso

30 skellies
-spears
-muso

20 skellies
-muso

5 dire wolves

5 dire wolves

Special

8 crypt horrors

10 black knights
-barding

1 bat swarm

1 bat swarm

1 spirit host

Rare

Black coach


The main line will be crypt horrors between the two 30 man hordes of skellies. Right behind will be the 20 skellies in a 5x4 setup with the master necro. The whole formation will make a sort of T shape, if you can picture it. Clustered around the black knights with the two vampires, probably on a flank, will be the wolves and bats. The spirit host will be on its own to tie up a unit with little or no static combat res. The black coach will be on the other flank. The concept is fairly obvious: The army gets bigger as it goes, particularly in the first two turns before it is in combat.

I don't have my book in front of me, so this may be just a few points over 2k. If so, I plan to drop a few skellies. I should be able to do so and still meet the core minimum.

So, any thoughts? Will this one work like I'm thinking, or am I setting myself up for defeat?

-Jim

Hmm I had an idea for a vamp list with a very similar core, great minds think alike I suppose. Though I cant comment on much since book is new and I'm terrible at new things. Only problem with the list that I see is that bat swarms come in at least packs of 2 so the two you have need to combine

These kind of lists can be scary to run because you start with a low number of tar pit guys and rely heavily on being able to raise them up and with the way magic is nowadays (random power dice) it is a risk. Also i think the vampires with black knights is a little overkill, my gut says to stick one in with skeletons. lastly i believe you should take a vampire lord (possibly replace one of the vamp heroes) with master of black arts to maximize the amount of power dice you can potentially produce (although that can fluff too). overall i think your mind is in the right place as far as the way this army should function.

Bat Swarms are 2+ bases for a unit, so you can't run just one base.
If it's the "Always Strike Last" you're looking for from the bats, then I think you'll want more than one base anyways.
For cheap redirectors/charge lane blockers; fell bats are cheaper, and faster within 12" of the GEN.

I like the black knight theme, but if you're running a vamp in the unit, you could get away with going 5+vamp.
The 2 units will let you threaten both flanks at once, and one WFT/tar-pit won't ruin your killing power.

8 Crypt horrors are a lot of horrors. I'd think about dropping them down to 6 in order to get 2 more black knights and maybe full command for some skeletons. The banners will keep you from an auto-loss in blood and glory, and if you ever head to a tourney the banners will help with your comp score, and maybe some of the special missions.

For the vamps summon creatures of the night and dark acolyte is cool, but your vamps are going to see a lot of combat riding around with the knights. I'd drop the summon creatures/acolyte for a ward save on each vamp. I'm not sure what else you could swap around to find the points, but a ward save will serve your combat vamps very well.

Just out of curiosity, why have you not included 1 - 2 small units of zombies? If you ask me, they're pretty perfect for the theme as they're easy to raise and get raised more quickly than their less fleshy brethren.
Though if you want to skip out on Zombies, I can understand that.

Zombies may indeed be a good choice. I know it may not be the best tactical move, but my model choice is heavily influenced by how much I want to paint various models. Zombies may not be so bad, I suppose...

I can understand that you do not want to paint the GW zombies. I would advice you to buy the Mantic zombies instead, unless you play at a GW.
In either case, a 30 unit zombies is only 90 points, and you raise on an average 11 zombies per IoN with your lvl4. Thats 50 zombies on turn 2.
Another thing I noted is your lack of minor Necromancers... May I ask why? I understand that they feel quite unnecessary considering they wont be able to raise the Skeletons... But a support caster might fit well in this list, I think.

Cornerfag is right, i find if you want to raise skellies, it's not really a good option. Only 1 guy can increase skellies and he can only cast it once so it can be controlled. If you had zombies you could get 50 extra (130 total) and a corpse cart if you wanted to gift them ASF.

I also agree you need support casters. for the cost on 1 of your vampire you can get 2 lv2 necros to assist in the raising or whatnot, perhaps even take an alternative lore such as death or shadows if you feel you want some variety in the spells.

Overall though it looks an interesting list, but if you want the 2 vamps in the BK, perhaps look at making one a BSB.

Oh yeah, regarding the Black Knights... I always feel that a Wight King is way better support for them, since that allows them to retain Spectral Steeds... And I don't know about you, but I LOOOOOVEE spectral steeds.

Another good thing for WK over vamp, is not only the reduced cost and spectral steeds but also the T5 increasing his survivability way more vs rank and file and the like plus the magical attacks, killing blow etc means he's also handier in a challenge.

jamin p wrote:Another good thing for WK over vamp, is not only the reduced cost and spectral steeds but also the T5 increasing his survivability way more vs rank and file and the like plus the magical attacks, killing blow etc means he's also handier in a challenge.

But its always useful to have some backup casters in case the general goes poof. I'd suppose though that backup casters shouldnt be galloping ahead though and risking death

So... If I try to build this list around raising skellies, an opponent can easily counter it, and would risk comparatively less from the dire wolves and bat swarms that the vampires would be left open to bolster. Zombies could be a better option for a raising list, and would be more conducive to several low level casters instead of a lvl 4 necro. Also, if I am going to include black knights, vampires are a bad choice to ride with them.

I am going to ponder all of this, and post some revisions...

-Jim

JimLofa wrote:So... If I try to build this list around raising skellies, an opponent can easily counter it, and would risk comparatively less from the dire wolves and bat swarms that the vampires would be left open to bolster. Zombies could be a better option for a raising list, and would be more conducive to several low level casters instead of a lvl 4 necro. Also, if I am going to include black knights, vampires are a bad choice to ride with them.

I am going to ponder all of this, and post some revisions...

-Jim

Well, it's not bad to run Vampires with the Black Knights, they're still a really solid choice... It's more that you can unleash the full potential of the Knights.
Believe me, I've been in plenty of situations where Spectral Steeds has given me a huge advantage over my opponents flankers.

Ok. I've refined the list and bumped it up to 2250. Same theme and all, just a bit more fine tuned. I dropped the vampires and added a few a bit more magic support.

Lords:
Master Necro
-lvl4
-talisman of preservation

Heroes:
necromancer
-lvl2

necromancer
-lvl2

Core:
40 zombies

40 zombies

30 zombies

30 zombies

10 direwolves

10 direwolves

Special:
8 crypt horrors

8 crypt horrors

1 spirit host

1 spirit host

1 spirit host

2 bat swarm

Rare:
1 Black Coach

1 mortis engine
-blasphemous tome



The list is divided into two battle groups with some floating support units. The first group has two 40 man hordes of zombies in the front, a thirty man 5x6 unit with the two lvl 2 necros, the corpse cart, and the mortis engine in the back. The second group has the two units of crypt horrors in the front, a thirty man unit of zombies behind which will contain the level 4 necro, and dire wolves to protect the flanks or else rush forward to meet oncoming threats. The coach, spirit hosts, and bat swarms will deploy where they are needed and address monsters, chariots, etc. Opponents would need to break through the lines to get to my characters, but I'm still worried about challenges. Those necros will go down hard to a sturdy unit champion, which will only give my opponents extra victory points. I have a few extra points, so I could drop two spirit hosts and three zombie for a pair of cairn wraiths to offer a little protection from challenges. The engine, cart, and coach will be cannon targets, but at least my opponent will have to choose between the three. With any luck, I can pressure him into aiming war machines at the coach. Spirit hosts could be used to go after war machines if they have to.

Well guys, what do you think? Anything obvious that I missed? Anything that just doesn't fit? Do the tactics/deployment strategy fit the list?

-Jim