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Lets face it, I probably won't take an army like Daemons half way around the world to a large tournament. I should probably play GKs, but don't wanna do that either. I bought some Hellions and have been planning lists with them. The question is: is 21 lance shots+ the hellions in combat enough antitank that I can take the incubi. I LOVE the new incubi models and have to admit that they are shrouding my judgement .

HQ1: Baron Santhonyx @ 105pts.
HQ2: Haemonculus @ 50pts.

Elites1: 4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Elites2: 4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Elites3: 5 Incubi @ 110pts.

Troops1: 3 Wracks @ 30pts.
Troops2: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops3: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops4: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops5: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops6: 16 Hellions @ 256pts.

HS1: Ravager @ 105pts.
HS2: Ravager @ 105pts.
HS3: Ravager @ 105pts.

Elites1: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Elites2: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Elites3: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops1: Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.
Troops2: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops3: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops4: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops5: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.

Total @ 1847pts.

Those ravagers badly need flickerfields.

I love the way your list looks on paper. With all of your units on venoms you are gonna be all over the place at lighting speed. Im trying to do the same but I like the cc aspect of it so Im gonna take wyches instead of warriors and 10 reavers.

Sorry to say, but hellions just aren't that good. 21 lances is good though. I'd take some beasts in place of the hellions and maybe a second wrack squad. That gets you an extra venom and the beasts can target vehicles and keep baron safe. Run the beasts with 5 kyhmerae and 4 razorwings (3 beastmasters). With no wyches though the haemy is really out of place especially with no liquifier.
The baron can give them stealth a PGL if they stick together, and the beasts can function as wounds for the baron. Razorwings can threaten anything up to rear armor 12 in CC so thats some AT and a second CC unit to compliment the incubi.

Thx for the comments guys.

Corollax wrote:Those ravagers badly need flickerfields.

I've never really cared for flickerfields on my ravagers. In the early game (when your opponent want's to down them) there are plenty of vehicles to give cover saves. Good use of terrain can even keep you in cover for the rest of the game.

Akroma06 wrote:Sorry to say, but hellions just aren't that good. 21 lances is good though. I'd take some beasts in place of the hellions and maybe a second wrack squad. That gets you an extra venom and the beasts can target vehicles and keep baron safe. Run the beasts with 5 kyhmerae and 4 razorwings (3 beastmasters). With no wyches though the haemy is really out of place especially with no liquifier.
The baron can give them stealth a PGL if they stick together, and the beasts can function as wounds for the baron. Razorwings can threaten anything up to rear armor 12 in CC so thats some AT and a second CC unit to compliment the incubi.

Originally when I started DE (maybe a year ago) I tried hellions and wasn't very happy. But, I'm gonna give them another try. They have an advantage over the beast packs in that the hellions are scoring, and can provide cover for the entire army. Nice amount of poison shots, cc attacks that can threaten vehicles and non-dedicated cc infantry, and they are a pain to torrent away. Can't be that bad? Next saturday there is a small tournament where I can test out the hellions and incubi.

Love the list!

Do you think you have enough venoms? You do have a bunch of AT shots, but maybe a few of the venoms could be raiders if you need more AT. That's a 5 point additional cost with the ff . Could be made with the sacrifice of the trophies if you add 1, or 1 Hellion if you add 2-3 raiders. That long range firepower is nice.

WRT the Hellions, I disagree. The Baron is a great investment and gives a bunch of abilities that it is nice to use all of. Hellions benefit from pain tokens, can move with impuntiy through terrain with a 1/36 chance of death, just enough to give the 3+ cover save (2+ if GTG and you are expecting rediculously high amounts of shooting at them that turn) with 4+ FNP. But the best aspect is the hit and run which allows them to fill the 3rd slot in 40k;
Tarpits/Anvils - scarabs, wyches, orcs, seer council etc
Hammers - BT, demons, incubi etc
Glue - Slaneesh, Harlequins, Hellions etc, anything with HnR

With the point of this being to get into a long multi-combat that swings the battle your way, the following combos work;

Tarpits and glue work
Glue by itself doesn't work
Tarpits and Hammers work
Hammer by itself don't work
Anvil by itself works for some things
Hammer and glue can work but is harder to stay in combat

So I would take Wyches with the Hellions over the Incubi

I like that list with a bit more AT.

haizelhoff wrote:Lets face it, I probably won't take an army like Daemons half way around the world to a large tournament. I should probably play GKs, but don't wanna do that either. I bought some Hellions and have been planning lists with them. The question is: is 21 lance shots+ the hellions in combat enough antitank that I can take the incubi. I LOVE the new incubi models and have to admit that they are shrouding my judgement .

HQ1: Baron Santhonyx @ 105pts.
HQ2: Haemonculus @ 50pts.

Elites1: 4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Elites2: 4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Elites3: 5 Incubi @ 110pts.

Troops1: 3 Wracks @ 30pts.
Troops2: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops3: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops4: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops5: 5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Troops6: 16 Hellions @ 256pts.

HS1: Ravager @ 105pts.
HS2: Ravager @ 105pts.
HS3: Ravager @ 105pts.

Elites1: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Elites2: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Elites3: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops1: Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.
Troops2: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops3: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops4: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.
Troops5: Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.

Total @ 1847pts.

" I probably won't take an army like Daemons half way around the world to a large tournament."

I would. I would walk in there with the expectation to take 1st place with my Daemons, and I know I would have a good chance of doing so. The large # of GK
players that think they will easily beat Daemons\don't understand how they work until it is too late, would work to my advantage.

Now, onto the topic at hand. I would ditch the Helions, Incubi, and add Flickerfields to the Ravagers. At 1850, this is what I would run.

Baron Santhonyx
5 Kabalite Trueborn + Blaster x3 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Trueborn + Blaster x3 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Trueborn + Blaster x3 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1 + Venom + Splinter Cannon
5 Scourges + Dark Lance x2
Ravager + Dark Lance x3 + Flickerfield
Ravager + Dark Lance x3 + Flickerfield
Ravager + Dark Lance x3 + Flickerfield

Total Points = 1850

At 1850, it is a sick army. 11 dark lance shots, 108 splinter cannon shots, 15 blaster shots, 6 troop choices. I typically don't run Beastmasters & beasts until 2000 points. At that point, I run 2 squads of them.

Why ditch the hellions? I understand the incubi, but what reasons would you give for ditching the hellions?

Also, about taking Daemons to Adepticon. Everybody has an army that fits into their hand perfectly and which they would take to any tournament and look for first place. For you it might be Daemons, I know I felt like that with the old necrons codex. But those are down to the individual. I don't think I'll take daemons because I don't feel as comfortable playing with them.

haizelhoff wrote:Why ditch the hellions? I understand the incubi, but what reasons would you give for ditching the hellions?

Also, about taking Daemons to Adepticon. Everybody has an army that fits into their hand perfectly and which they would take to any tournament and look for first place. For you it might be Daemons, I know I felt like that with the old necrons codex. But those are down to the individual. I don't think I'll take daemons because I don't feel as comfortable playing with them.

Mostly personal preference. I believe Venom Spam is stronger with as many splinter cannons, dark lances, and blasters as possible. I would also drop the Wracks; see build above.

@NoArmorSave

High Fire output. Are you buying the Baron just to fill the HQ slot and the +1? What's his plan?

Scourges seem a bit out of place? A mobile unit with heavy weapons.

The thing is, hellions bring mass splinter shots aswell. Your 12x 48" range shots, vs my 32x 30" range shots. If I was smart, I would swap the incubi for 4 trueborn with blasters. Suddenly, my dark light weapons are just one less then in your list. The hellions can also bring cover saves etc. and are way better then the single extra dark lance against parking lots imo.

@cmac: Scourges are the most points efficient way of getting dark lances after trueborn and ravagers. The baron gives them stealth presumably. I would probably still take either blasters or haywire blasters on the scourges but I do see the point in NoArmourSave's choice.

Yeah, I guess.

That squad is 140 points with 2 darklight, a raider is 60 points for 1 darklight, but the slots are filled with venoms so it makes sense. 245 points for 2 dark lances with +1 to first turn seems a bit steep in a list brimming with efficiency. Blasterborn could be increased by 3 with change for vehicle upgrades, however this increases the target priority of the blasterborn. I would have thought heat lances or blasters would have kept them mobile with the baron. Wouldn't bother with HWG launchers without a decent CC unit as many armies don't care about stunned etc.

Just wondering on the play strategy for them.

cmac wrote:Yeah, I guess.

That squad is 140 points with 2 darklight, a raider is 60 points for 1 darklight, but the slots are filled with venoms so it makes sense. 245 points for 2 dark lances with +1 to first turn seems a bit steep in a list brimming with efficiency. Blasterborn could be increased by 3 with change for vehicle upgrades, however this increases the target priority of the blasterborn. I would have thought heat lances or blasters would have kept them mobile with the baron. Wouldn't bother with HWG launchers without a decent CC unit as many armies don't care about stunned etc.

Just wondering on the play strategy for them.

HWG launchers might be crucial for your paper airplanes to remain airbone. E.g. a rifleman in cover can be very difficult to suppress, but HWG launchers can make it easier to counter that, meanwhile your 'killy' stuff can concentrate on opening some transports for your venoms to enjoy.

Played 2 games with this list today (I'm taking it to a 3-game tourney on saturday). 1. was against SW, I won with a massacre. We didn't finish the game, so I don't have exact battlepoints, but my opponent would have just hided everything he had left and I would have gone to get them. SW got to go first, but I managed to hide my army (except fnp hellions) placing one ravager in reserve. Second game was against orks with 3 battlewagons, 7 walkers and some boyz+grots. Gazzy's waagh charge range almost got me, but some lucky lances into his wagon downed it despite nightfight and I managed to break his army apart. I did play stupidly with the hellions, going after one wagon, but losing them in the process. The hellions should be more of a counter attack unit, and a speedy beater unit with HnR towards the end of the game. The Ork list had 10 vehicles, the SW 5 (one land raider). Anitank wasn't such an issue in these games, and the incubi always had something to do. Having some counter attack elements in the list is great. I certainly like the hellions and incubi.

Baron+hellion unit just will fold over and die to GK and Necron shooting, but the biggest worry they have is against any generic mech army that has the sense to Tank Shock them. Enemy DE with Shock Prow Raiders and a TGL on a few (What I personally do) just love dealing with "deathstars" via Ld-brute force break Tank Shock (Usually Ld 8 breaks after 3-4 times, most units Ld 9 might even too, won't get Ld 10 too often unless some older rules like Black Templars/Tau Shadowsun)

Grisly Trophies can help you with this problem, but not so much (especially with 1 set? You think the enemy will not ask where that one set is? lol) against the typical Tank Shock+Template one-two punch I am familiar with seeing/doing. Hellions with a WWP might help this giving you a plethora of threat range from either the Portal or Table edge could help them too, but I really find them lacking.

I personally think you need more actual Dark Lances, 2x units of Lanceborn and 2x units of Dark Lance Scourges. Single blasters suck at anti-tank from my experience, and the main problem with this list and many like it are all your anti-tank is short ranged (hope to kill or die from retaliation) or CC (Which is NOT effective, no matter how much you think it is, having to hit a Fast mech army on 6's and only for the guys inside said mech to shoot you afterwards is pretty silly. If you're wondering why Dark Lance Scourges, mostly for more ranged-anti tank. Haywire Blasters could pass if you practice enough and not expecting to face too many GK or Cron (which are immune to suppression (Stun/Shake), relatively)

There's a reason Mech IG just walk over this kinda list when they're well played

But if it's working for you, it's working for you, can't say much about how it works locally, but I'm judging it for you from a wider perspective.

I'd dump 1 warrior/venom = 125
Add 2 Wracks + Liq = 30
Add NS/FF to all 3 raveragers = 60
Add Liq + Shattershard = 35 to Heamoc.

even steven if my point are correct.

@Smurfy. Thx for the comment.

Absolutely, tank shocks are an issue. I know the single grisly trophies isn't great . Problem is scooping the points for a couple more. If the hellion squad is gonna be pivotal to the game, boost some skimmers to block tank shocks. Isn't hard (except against skimmers) but you lose shooting for that phase. You also have to remember, that by shooting off the remnants of a squad, you get that third token, and with it fearless.

I disagree with the d-lances. They have more issues with mobility (only providing 3" more of range and remaining static). Blasters are balls to the walls, but honestly I've done good with blasters. It's part of the playstyle of this kind of a list. If you wanna play keep away, the immobile dlances are bad. IMO the reason why I've managed to beat mechIG before is that haywire grenades are really good in that matchup, better then d-lances imo (although my tourney games against mech guard are 1-1). I've had a couple of squads of wyches generally, but with hellions in there, I dropped them. More playtesting will give more input. I understand your points, and wouldn't trash them, but don't find them as big an issue.

@FeindusMaximus: thx for the comment. Night shields are better with stuff that advance (like raiders, venoms) imo opinion. I've also never really grown fond of flickerfields on ravagers. It isn't that hard to get cover. Although, something like that could free up points for grisly trophies etc. (maybe bulking up the hellions?).

I wrote a short post on my blog on yesterday's tournament:

http://calltoarms40k.blogspot.com/2012/01/last-game-was-game-of-cat-and-mouse.html

It was a small tournament, and lacking the very best players, but I had a good time and tough games. I won all 3 games and came in 2. place. Overall, I like the list. I'm unsure on whether to include the incubi or not. Some sort of clean up unit is nice to have, since the hellions can't be everywhere, but in a couple of games they didn't really do anything. I may just be going for the trueborn. I might drop the trueborn down to 3-man units and upgrade some warriors to wyches with haywire grenades and an agonizer. That's what I used to play and was very happy with. Have to play around a little bit.

I've had more games under my belt with this list (7/1/1). This is what It's starting to look like:

Baron Santhonyx @ 105pts.

Haemonculus @ 50pts.

4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.

4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.

4 trueborn with 4 blasters @ 108pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon @ 65pts.

3 Wracks @ 30pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.

5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.

5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.

5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.

5 Warriors with blaster @ 60pts.
Venom with extra splinter cannon, grisly trophies @ 70pts.

15 Hellions @ 240pts.

Ravager @ 105pts.

Ravager @ 105pts.

Ravager @ 105pts.

Total @ 1849pts.

That 16th hellion only forces me to put more models in cover, 3 extra trophies is better. The hellions have been really good in my games, especially since it's not that hard to acquire that last token.

What did you lose and draw to?

What notable armies did it beat?

7/1/1 is good.

That is identical to my friend daves list.

I lost to vanilla marines and drew SOB. St. celestine ate the entire hellion squad (with a generally good SOB turn) and I had no other way to kill that many power armour dudes then through combat. In the attrition I lost most of my scoring models, but so did my opponent and we drew on all three objectives (bases, seize and vp). I lost to vanillas because they deployed in a corner, when I went first, my ravagers were not deployed centrally but to the sides, and the marines just rolled well and wrecked my vehicles. It wasn't a big loss (14-6) and I would have won 11-9 on t5, but a loss anyway. I've won mechdar and space wolves twice, orks, csm, and a triple LR dark angels list. Most of those games have been against FInland's top notch opponents, with a couple less experienced players.

One thing that some people have been suggesting to me is changing all the warrior squads into wracks and taking a beastpack. Is that a good idea? the warrior blasters are a nice back up, but does somebody have experience on playing hellions+beastmasters? The beastmasters would probably also lag behind the hellions, and getting multiple combats would be a little more difficult.

haizelhoff wrote:One thing that some people have been suggesting to me is changing all the warrior squads into wracks and taking a beastpack. Is that a good idea? the warrior blasters are a nice back up, but does somebody have experience on playing hellions+beastmasters? The beastmasters would probably also lag behind the hellions, and getting multiple combats would be a little more difficult.

Who are the people suggesting that? They should be smacked.
I personally don't like Hellions+Beaastmasters simply because I think each unit is only really good with Baron S - and you can only take one Baron S.

Looking at your core list I'm a little iffy towards the Incubi and I'm glad you took them out. Their assault advantage was filled by the Hellions and the waves of Venom fire. I strongly approve of getting in the extra Trueblasters - you're going to have a limited ability to put a hurt on your opponent's vehicles Turn 1 - so it will be very important that you have an overwhelming impact by Turn 2 and the extra bodies and Blasters will give your foe that much more stuff to pop out of the sky.

I'll admit I'd sack the trophies for FFs any day, but that is a bit of a playstyle preference.

I agree, I think we lose that the force multiplier benefit of the baron with more and 1 unit for him to boost. He can mix it up and jump between units but that gives the opponent options in target priority.

My meta is heavy in mech and sometimes the ravagers/trueborn seem to have bad days, when this happens the AI stuff can be left with no place to put fingers so I switched some of the venoms to raiders. I'm also not sure on the value of just the Baron and the hellions for the CC workloads, I think they need a tarpit unit like the wyches to benefit from the HNR funtimes. Any decent CC unit will shred them and we can't HNR when we get chased down from losing combat.

Currently running a list in the Shanghai "GT" at 1850 (this runs over a month);

Haem w Liq
Wyches x 8, hek, ag, hw gren in raider w FF and NS
Warriors x 5, blaster in venom w SC and NS (x2)
Warriors x 5, blaster in raider w FF and NS (x2)
Wracks x 3, raider w FF and NS
Trueborn x 4, Blaster x 4, venom w SC and NS (x3)
Ravager w FF and NS (x3)

Expecting a lot of mech and first game was 8 lascan razorbacks, 18 LF's. I was lucky enough to get the alpha and got 4 kills and a WD in KP's which reduced his return fire to only 4 kills. Next firing turn did the job for the DE but if I hadn't loaded AT heavy then this was a loss, the board isn't big enough to hide from this.

My point is that I believe the meta had changed and venom spam has more really bad match-ups, scythe spam is one. It's also the source of the 25 dark light weapons which I find may to be a problem, 9 from Ravagers and 12 from the trueborn. These are both pretty easy for the opponent to negate which can leave us in need of AT around turn 3 if our paper planes burn.

Some of the warriors in raiders can be useful, as the 2.5" turn can give them the additional mobilty to get ahead of the trueborn and screen them from counter assault (meaning they are just infront of trueborn at that nice halfway point on the board where we get our killzone with less than an infantry sized base gap between them).

I do miss the Baron +1 first turn roll.

You're right, putting 21 of those dark light weapons on 6 units is kinda risky. But honestly the hellions help aswell. with 2 tokens, they're always getting atleast str5 on the charge. I've rarely found myself in a situation where I really have no antitank left. Surprising, but true. I just don't like raiders. If I have the chance to take a more survivable vehicle with more firepower for 5 extra points, whilst maintaining enough antitank, then I'll do it. Venomspam seems really gimmicky, sure, but I would say they have more good then bad matchups.