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Oi ladz!,


So, ill be going up against ig in a 2k bttle in about a week.
I've been searching the forums a bit but could not realy find anything i liked.

We both have almost everything there is from each army.

What are the do's and donts?

Don't be timid.
Feints and distractions won't work on a IG army made for defeating orks.
Lots a' Boyz and speed might. Deffkoptas and bikers can help take some pressure off of the green wave.

Snikrot, he can show up from any board edge and just start hammering into the rear armour of your opponents tanks.

CrashCanuck wrote:Snikrot, he can show up from any board edge and just start hammering into the rear armour of your opponents tanks.

Meh, he can encourage some opponents to push board centre to avoid him but really he is overestimated. The best case scenario is that he's going to run on, punch through a hydra, and then proceed to get shot to bits. The worst case (and probably more likely) scenario is that he's going to run on, whiff at a hydra, and then get shot to bits. He's only strength 6 when charging.

I'm not going to lie, guard are not a great match up for Orks. I suppose you could try and choke his firepower. Battlewagon spam could fail epically as his inevitable vendettas scout move and then blast their side and rear armour. Can wall could work, although at their armour values our opponents autocannons and the like will probably eat the kans despite the KFF. Green tide might work. Take 2 KFF meks, and then 180 boyz, maybe a few lootas if you have the points to try and stun-lock some vehicles to negate damage, you might even get lucky and wreck a few. Also, as steelmage said, deffkoptas are a good choice vs guard.

Both of the IG players at my store wipe me from the table most times I try to fight them toe to toe. Starting off on the board gives them too many targets. I try to go second and reserve everything to take away 2 turns of shooting from them, except Dawn of War, in which I try to go first. All of my units are mobile or mounted, no large Mobz for them to pie plate. At 2K, I have started bringing Snikrot and a PK IC, a Big Mek KFF in a Battlewagon full of Boyz, 2 more BWs full of Boyz, a Trukk full of Boyz, Stormboyz, and 2 Deffkoptas. This gives me 4 scoring units in vehicles, 2 units I can Ambush or Deep Strike wherever I wish, and 2 Outflanking Scouts, and 6 Mobz of Boyz to get stuck in. Even with their abilities to slow my Reserve rolls by -1, they do not have any idea where I will be coming from, and I know exactly where I want to strike.

Rampage wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:Snikrot

He's only strength 6 when charging.

Snikrot is THE best asset you can use against a Guard Army because he has the ability to put a PK IC ANYWHERE you want to do the most damage. If your opponent tries to bubblewrap his perimeter with Guardsmen, you can assault them with Stormboyz or Deffkoptas to pull them away from the board edges, or just plow through them with your Kommandoz. I do not recommend Kan Wall/Green tide as this is what IG were made to dispose of.

MadDoc He allows everyone in your army to take cyber-ork bodies, take a squad of Mega Nobz with cyborc bodies and Mad Doc grosnit He gives FNP and feerless. Take a couple squads of boys in trukks or a Deff Dred and a Big Mek with Force Field. Put the Big mech in a Battlewagon with a squad of Burnas 15, give the big mech a burna. Put the Mega Nobz in a Battlewagon, keep them close to the big mech, put deff rollas and boarding planks on each. The plan is to get close and get there fast. They will have problems dealing with you in CC. Give your boys a nob with Power Claw. Those things are your best bet on vehicle hunting. The DefKoptas are okay, but if you do not get first turn outflank them, they will be shot to crap before they get to do anything with them.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:MadDoc He allows everyone in your army to take cyber-ork bodies, take a squad of Mega Nobz with cyborc bodies and Mad Doc grosnit He gives FNP and feerless. Take a couple squads of boys in trukks or a Deff Dred and a Big Mek with Force Field. Put the Big mech in a Battlewagon with a squad of Burnas 15, give the big mech a burna. Put the Mega Nobz in a Battlewagon, keep them close to the big mech, put deff rollas and boarding planks on each. The plan is to get close and get there fast. They will have problems dealing with you in CC. Give your boys a nob with Power Claw. Those things are your best bet on vehicle hunting. The DefKoptas are okay, but if you do not get first turn outflank them, they will be shot to crap before they get to do anything with them.

Def koptas are very good vs guard. They make them sacrafice valuable shooting to take them out or risk losing vehicles. The fast Truk build is potent against guard but you need those Koptas to draw fire or destroy firing vehicles. Trust me every guard player hates koptas, their annoying and pose a threat enough to need to shoot at them. If you can get your truks across the board into their lines your going to wreak havoc. Things like Hydras, Manticores, Valks, hvy weps are going to be your main targets with the koptas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^ P.S (off-topic) NICE sig!

What list do you normally take?

Kanwall is not so good as barrage takes your boys down to a 5+ cover rather than a 4+. Trukks will get annihilated. BW wont be easy but if the enemy has no skimmers then it might be possible. Tide seems a good way to go.

I think your best bet would be mass deffrollas and burnas or tide.

My buddy has success running a bunch of fast stuff (koptas, bikes, buggies) up to start laying down dakka while a horde follows up. You have to choose between shooting the fast stuff and therefore the boyz close the distance, or shooting the boyz and letting the fast stuff have its way. Tough choice.

Are you guys really having that much trouble with guard? I usually win at least 50/50 against good guard players with leaf-blower style armies when using my battlewagons, which is what you'd expect from a balanced game.

Scouting vendettas will get sideshots, true, but you can pick which wagon they can side shot. Driving up one flank will leave only a single battlewagon's side visible (drive little less than 12" with the other ones to hide them), make sure that wagon is not carrying anything important. Scout-moves can and should be blocked, and lootaz should take down vendettas first priority, unless there is a manticore in plain sight, of course. Koptas can even prevent vendettas from scouting all together, if you win the roll, and if he doesn't block your own scout move, his manticores might end up wrecked/weapon destroyed by a lone buzz saw. Once the manticores and vendettas are gone, the game will get a lot easier.

As for reserving everything: That's terrible. The strength of the ork army is providing more targets than the enemy can kill, be it boyz, trukks, battlewagons or kanz. By reserving, you are serving your army in just small enough portions for the IG to handle, gaining close to nothing. You are not taking two rounds of shooting away from them, you are taking two rounds of orks punching guardsmen away from yourself, while dividing your army. And we all know that orks should not divide their army.

take Koptas

1st turn in a non-DOW match, you've can pack a lot of punch to start with by taking lootas and koptas.

Koptas should be taken in units of 1 with buzzsaws then turbo boost in their scout move and assault vehicles as soon as possible. They are only strength 7 on the charge, but you auto-hit first turn and you're hitting rear armor. You've got an 87.5% chance to score a glance and a 70% chance to score a pen. Hopefully, you can wreck or destroy a weapon, but worst case they won't be shooting the next turn, giving you a chance to get closer.

I like to take multiple squads of lootas, either 3x10 or 2x15. Place them in terrain or bubble wrap them in grots to make sure they live long enough. Smart opponents will target them first. Using squads of 15 ensures they live long enough, but squads of 10 make your opponent split their fire and you can hit more targets.

If you've got 3 bw full of boyz with a big mek to obscure the bw, you've got a good chance of over-saturating the board with targets and getting a couple of squads in range to have the deff-rollas do some real damage. Take snikrot to push them closer to your side of the board.

If you get to go first in DOW, hopefully they won't have range to see you as long as you keep the lootas at the back of the board. They have a 48" range, so they should still have targets to shoot.

Going 2nd gets a little dicier. There is almost nothing you can do to prevent your lootas getting shot at. I've heard of using the battlewagons as a bunker, but then you don't get to use your deffrollas and if you want to disambark you lose a turn of shooting. Maybe hide then behind the BW line? I'm open to suggestions.

You also can't use your scout moved koptas because they'll get blasted (although they will have a 3+ save and 2 wounds, but usually they'll bite it). They also won't auto-hit if the vehicles moved, which greatly reduces your chances of success. I would think about reserving them and trying to outflank later on, or just scout move them, hope it takes several units' shots to hit them and act as a bullet sponge. Of course any S8 weapon will instant kill (although you do get the 3+ cover save, which will help). They can tie up smaller units of guard if they live, maybe the HWT, just long enough to make a difference. Any unit shooting at your koptas isn't a unit shooting at your lootas. However, in a kill point mission, they can be a liability.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Rampage wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:Snikrot

He's only strength 6 when charging.

Snikrot is THE best asset you can use against a Guard Army because he has the ability to put a PK IC ANYWHERE you want to do the most damage. If your opponent tries to bubblewrap his perimeter with Guardsmen, you can assault them with Stormboyz or Deffkoptas to pull them away from the board edges, or just plow through them with your Kommandoz. I do not recommend Kan Wall/Green tide as this is what IG were made to dispose of.

Really, and that squad will cost how many points, just to see it blown away by the remainder of the guard gunline afterwards? Let's look at this barebones. The Snikrot squad costs 135, and a warboss with just a power klaw costs an additional 85. Bringing you to 220 points just to see a S10 Power Klaw in your opponents back-field. Howeverm there are a couple of problems with this.

Firstly, you might end up with this squad arriving late on in the game, IIRC Orks don't have anything that can modify reserve rolls, and so it is a real possibility that this squad rolls on turn 3 or possibly 4.

Secondly, as I mentioned before, yes you are going to eat a vehicle, but guard can get so many guns for such a low points cost that now matter how much your stormboyz or deffkoptas do, they are still going to have enough firepower to rip that squad apart.

However, deffkoptas are a decent suggestion here, but I'm not sure about stormboyz. There really 3 ways to get them into combat, speed them across from your deployment zone (will probably be killed by shooting in the process, and even if you hide them behind vehicles, they may not arrive before Snikrot does), deep strike them and hope that you don't mishap and that they aren't shot to bits while waiting for the next turn to come around so that they can assault (good luck with that), or give them Zagstruk and assault straight in from deep strike, losing a couple of stormboyz on the way (sinking points into another suicide unit). However, I could be incorrect here as I'm not familiar with stormboyz as I have never run them. I run a very strange list that no-one likes but suits my play style down to the ground and I've had decent success with it, including against guard.

I didn't recommend Kan Wall, completely the opposite. However, saying that you do not recommend Kan Wall/Green Tide emplies that you believe Battlewagon spam is the best option. But guard is just as suited for taking out this as it is for Kan Wall or Green Tide. All they need to do is scout their inevitable vendettas up to get view on side armour, rip into the Battlewagons, leaving their occupants stranded on the backline, and then bomb the remaining wagons with manticores.

As I said before, Guard are a not a good match up for Orks, no matter which one of the three competitive builds you take, Orks will probably struggle. Although Jidmah has convinced me that Battlewagon spam isn't too bad Vs guard. But really, when facing guard, yo want to make each and every point you spend count. Spending points on the Snikrot warboss thing will probably result in killing a manticore, but that unit is just going to get killed straight afterwards, and you can count on the IG player to have another manticore.

Also, reserving everything is just going to result in everything coming in piecemeal, and this is the last thing that you want to be doing, as the guard player is going to be reliably killing most of if not everything that comes on each turn, as they can stick to just killing you a few targets at a time.

I agree on not reserving. I generally don't like to do it if it can be avoided since I don't want concentrated fire on my lootas. I've had some success reserving a trukk or squad of boyz in spearhead because they can then come on from anywhere on my long table edge and then advance up the side. It could allow a reserved kopta to get in side or rear shots if my opponent isn't careful.

That is a lot of points to spend on a suicide unit, I agree. It might be possible to bring in the unit in such a way that you can assault 2 vehicles (1 with snikrot, 1 with the warboss), even though it might not be worth it. Still, that's 2 less vehicles to shoot at the rest of your army, plus the shots they have to spend on getting rid of them once they arrive.

It does affect how they deploy, forcing them away from the back edge or can allow you to contest an objective late. It can be tactically useful, even if you don't choose to bring him in from reserve from any table edge. You can just infiltrate him like normal if you're going 2nd. You still get the advantage that the 1st turn thought you might bring him in from anywhere, but then you get him into the battle when you want. Also useful for when you pop transports, to have a unit waiting to swarm in and annihilate whatever is left.

I totally agree on Zagstruck. The allure of 5 I4 S9 attacks on the charge is intoxicating. Unfortunately, those swoop attack casualties count for combat resolution, he doesn't have a power klaw after the charge, and if the deep strike pushes you too far away from any unit to assault, you're left with your d*ck in the wind to get blasted (6+ save for the stormboyz) and charged (no PK). I prefer the PK Nob w/bosspole option, which is cheaper and doesn't have to deepstrike. Just hold them on your side of the board and use their 13-18" rokkit movement +6" assault to get them into battle exactly where you need support. I'm not sure it's a great tactic against IG though.

For the price of 14 Kommandos and Snikrot, you could bring another full squad of 15 lootas for more dakka or 3 meganobs & a battlewagon w/deffrolla for krumpin'.

IG seems to be a bad matchup, but not as bad as DE Raider/Venom spam (what do you mean I lose 6" of shooting range, plus they have a 5+ obscured save, plus they can dodge my deffrolla, and they have lances and 12 shot poisoned splinter cannons) or draigowing (paladin wound allocation shenanigans put nob biker shenanigans to shame). How many armored vehicles do you expect to see?

I always put boarding planks on my battlewagons. That way if the deffrolla doesn't destroy them I get 4 S9 attacks during my assault. If they were immobilized, it is an auto-hit.

Rampage wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Snikrot is THE best asset you can use against a Guard Army

Really,

Yes. Have you ever used this combo? Like I said above, I take a Warboss on a Bike. He is WS5 and T6 in CC against a WS3 S3 army. Makes him really hard to wound. Yes, I assault vehicles, but I make sure I also MULTI-ASSAULT his troops, not to kill them, but to use them as a shield in the following Shooting Phase. And the Boyz wreck vehicles on the charge. 13 Slugga Boyz and 2 Burna Boyz can lay down 58 S4 attacks. If you can glance vehicles to death, they don't explode and kill your Boyz.

Rampage wrote:Firstly, you might end up with this squad arriving late on in the game, IIRC Orks don't have anything that can modify reserve rolls, and so it is a real possibility that this squad rolls on turn 3 or possibly 4.

Secondly, as I mentioned before, yes you are going to eat a vehicle, but guard can get so many guns for such a low points cost that now matter how much your stormboyz or deffkoptas do, they are still going to have enough firepower to rip that squad apart.

Given a Master of Fleet, who would reduce the Ork Reserve rolls by 1, a unit has a 33% chance to have entered by turn 2, 67% turn 3, and 89% turn 4.Yes, there are inherent risks, but I try to minimise the effect of re tarded rolls by increasing the number of units I Reserve. I do take Zagstruck, not for his Deep Strike Assault, but because his 'Violent Temper' auto-passes failed morale tests for the cost of a Boy. Better than a Bosspole! I usually Deep Strike them behind cover or out of LOS and rely on their 12+D6 movement to get them stuck in. Plus, they can jump over bubble wrapping infantry, and contest objectives in the upper levels of Ruins.

When facing any gunline in which I don't get to go first, I have the mobility to reserve everything and still threaten every part of the board when I come on. I have a KFF, 3 BWs, a Trukk, 2 Deffkoptas, and infiltrating Kommandoz, which are pretty intimidating if I want to start them on the table as well. I think Lootas are absolutely fabulous, but only with a mobile force to absorb incoming fire that would otherwise be directed at them.

Wow!,

i got so much more comments then i hoped for =].

So the game was pushed forward a couple of days.

I got to go 2nd since i lost initiative.

I reserved my trukk filled up with some burna''s,snikrot/ghazkull combo and my stormboyz with zagstrukk.

I deployed 2- 20man slugga squads and 2- 18 man shoota squads. 1 shoota squad wass accompanied by the Big Mek/KFF.
Small loota squad of 5, squad of 3 deffkopta's and a squadron of buggies BS's.

The IG luckily rolled a lot of 1's 2's and 3's in the shooting phase so i lost only 8 boyz and got 1 wound on a deffkopta.

My turn, Crumpin time!

My deffkopta's charged forward and shot down a sentinel and got a shaken result on another.

My slugga boyz and 1 squad of shoota boyz double timed towards the IG line while taking shelter in a crater and the rest under the KFF.
The loota's shot down a chimera that wasnt as safe at it thought to be

2nd turn. The punisher with 2 heavy bolters/lascannon decimated a ork slugga squad. I failed to save a lot of saves despite in cover Only 9 survived but the nob kept em in check.
On the other side of the board the eradicator shot down 2 of 3 deffkopta's. (passed morale)

here and there a boy fell from some las shots. Stupid grots...

On my 2nd turn zagstrukk and ghazkul/snikrot arrived.
Zagstrukk scattered, misshapped and soon found himself on the other side of the table cursing.
Ghazkull arrived with snikrot,and ran through the eradicator. (was 11.5 inch from the table edge )
my 8 man squad threw themselves on the last sentinel and crushed it.

3d turn.

Marbo arrived (sneaky git) and shot down a kommando. Vendetta arrived and crushed my buggy squadron. Leman russ with battle canon arrived and shot down every kommando exept 1 and ghazzkul and snikrot.
Some basic troops killed my 8 man squad except for the nob though he took a wound. Stormboyz took some serious losses but were left standing with 7. Loota's took 2 losses from master of ordnance and fled.

Once it was my turn my trukk arrived with burna's and started racing towards the guardsmen. Stormboyz charged the command squad and took it down, ty zagstrukk!.
Ghazkull stomped down marbo while snikrot got poisoned and died along with the other kommando.
Slugga boyz were still trying to crump down a large guardsmen squad, but my rolls sucked and were still locked.
shoota squad without BM fiiiiiinaly took an objective.

4th turn.

Ghazkull proved to be a badass as ever. He survived +- 30 lasgun shots/3 twl lascannons 3 heavy bolters and 4 autocannon shots though he took a wound or 2..
Because of LOS problems there were not much other options for the IG to shoot at. Thought hey took an objective as well.

Burna's arrived and burned the living out of the guardsmen. Ghazkull took down the punisher. Vendetta got crumped by a stray rokkit from my boyz.
Shoota boyz shot down a couple of guardsmen and the slugga boyz finished another squad of guardsmen.

turn 5.

IG surrendered because the odds were greatly in my favour

Though i won i was not all that happy with how the game went. I was waaaay to slow with my boyz because there was a lot of difficukt ground to cover.Were the hell were my buggies? They did absolutely nothing exept grinding of some paint of a chimera >.>

Sounds like a great time and a solid learning experience. You were VERY lucky to get your Stormboyz and Kommandoz in on turn 2, but I guess you can see why I like to bring 2 units that can threaten any part of the table. Don't discount Rokkit Buggies just because they did not perform well this time. Did they get shot at with anything? Absorbing fire is a perfectly legitimate use of a unit. Just to make the rules clear, only certain units can purchase a Trukk as a Dedicated Transport, and Burna Boyz are NOT one of them. They cannot begin the game embarked or be held in reserve in one. Thanks for letting us know how it all went.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Rampage wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Snikrot is THE best asset you can use against a Guard Army

Really,

Yes. Have you ever used this combo? Like I said above, I take a Warboss on a Bike. He is WS5 and T6 in CC against a WS3 S3 army. Makes him really hard to wound. Yes, I assault vehicles, but I make sure I also MULTI-ASSAULT his troops, not to kill them, but to use them as a shield in the following Shooting Phase. And the Boyz wreck vehicles on the charge. 13 Slugga Boyz and 2 Burna Boyz can lay down 58 S4 attacks. If you can glance vehicles to death, they don't explode and kill your Boyz.

Rampage wrote:Firstly, you might end up with this squad arriving late on in the game, IIRC Orks don't have anything that can modify reserve rolls, and so it is a real possibility that this squad rolls on turn 3 or possibly 4.

Secondly, as I mentioned before, yes you are going to eat a vehicle, but guard can get so many guns for such a low points cost that now matter how much your stormboyz or deffkoptas do, they are still going to have enough firepower to rip that squad apart.

Given a Master of Fleet, who would reduce the Ork Reserve rolls by 1, a unit has a 33% chance to have entered by turn 2, 67% turn 3, and 89% turn 4.Yes, there are inherent risks, but I try to minimise the effect of re tarded rolls by increasing the number of units I Reserve. I do take Zagstruck, not for his Deep Strike Assault, but because his 'Violent Temper' auto-passes failed morale tests for the cost of a Boy. Better than a Bosspole! I usually Deep Strike them behind cover or out of LOS and rely on their 12+D6 movement to get them stuck in. Plus, they can jump over bubble wrapping infantry, and contest objectives in the upper levels of Ruins.

When facing any gunline in which I don't get to go first, I have the mobility to reserve everything and still threaten every part of the board when I come on. I have a KFF, 3 BWs, a Trukk, 2 Deffkoptas, and infiltrating Kommandoz, which are pretty intimidating if I want to start them on the table as well. I think Lootas are absolutely fabulous, but only with a mobile force to absorb incoming fire that would otherwise be directed at them.

Ah, good points. I'm still not a fan of Snikrot and I'm definately still not a fan of Zagstruk because I think I will find them situational (Zagstruk more than Snikrot) for all of the points that you are paying but you've convinced me that when playing guard these guys are good.

@Grobnub, congratulations on your win .

Edit for grammer.

I play Hybrid Guard, and almost certain Im the guard player Genghis Jon is refering too. And i dislike commandos. Alot. Snikrot can turn the game around quickly, especially when there is a warboss on a bike. The ablity to pop up behind my lines and attack is nice.

Also cover as much as you can with a KFF. Its annoying to have a 4+ cover on the battle wagons when i get pens.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I play Hybrid Guard, and almost certain Im the guard player Genghis Jon is refering too.

http://www.algodoo.com/algobox/details.php?id=4478
So, professor Jenkins... my old nemesis. We meet again, but this time the advantage is all mine!
Ha! Ha! Ha!