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Im having a pretty terrible time versus these armies. My 1500 point list is:

Librarian
-powers: reroll invuls, ap3 template

Tactical Squad
-10 men, melta, ML, Las/Plas Razorback
Tactical Squad
-10 men, flamer, ML, Las/Plas Razorback
Tactical Squad
-5 men, Las/Plas Razorback

Assault Terminator Squad
-6x TH/SS

Land Raider Crusader
-Multi Melta
Predator
-lascannon sponsons
Predator
-Lascannon sponsons



Under my old list, I tried foot slogging my termies and librarian together and they died before being able to do their job. I lost more than most. Is the crusader the right answer to that? Does it take up a spot on the FOC if its a dedicated transport for the terminators? What really can I do to counter Demon and Ork armies?

In a list based on maximizing long range firepower, the LRC isn't a very good addition. I'd suggest a regular LR instead, which would give you some more firepower for your gunline and let your Assault Termies perform a counterassault role. It would also reduce your squad size to 5 plus the Librarian, which would give you a few points to play around with.

However, that would be my advice assuming the rest of your list was balanced. You say you're having trouble versus Orks and Daemons, and I suspect it might be due to how your force is equipped. Your list has a few each of melta, plasma, ML and autocannons, and is very heavy on the lascannons. Orks bring a lot of bodies to the field, and Daemons are all packing Invuln saves and Eternal Warrior, which reduce the effectiveness of the lascannons you're bringing. Your list is full of textbook competitive VSM choices (Librarian, Assault Termies, Autolas preds, las/plas Razorbacks), but these units are chosen in a mech environment and will falter against armies like Orks and Daemons without some good anti-infantry firepower in your list to balance it out. Some lascannons in a list are good, so you can pop that battlewagon first turn or focus fire that Greater Daemon down, but your list is just too focused on dealing with mech to be effective against an Ork horde or Daemon list.

In this case, I might actually recommend the LRC, as its high volume of shots will give you some much needed anti-infantry firepower. However, I think there are more cost efficient ways to introduce some anti-infantry into your list.

- Missile launchers are a great addition to any list, because they can do anti-infantry and anti-tank. For just under 100 points, the Land Speeder Typhoon gets you two frag missiles and 3 heavy bolter shots a turn while moving 12", a great way to get some shots in on hordes while avoiding any return fire. The dakka predator gives you 2 autocannon and 6 heavy bolter shots for a cheap price tag. The Whirlwind is more hit-or-miss than the Dakka pred, but definitely trends towards the "hit" when facing Orks and Daemons.
- In a 1500 point game, I'd consider dropping the Termies and LR. Yes, they're probably the best unit in C:SM, but they're an expensive investment for a gunline army and they can only be in one place at a time. Furthermore, Assault Termies are geared at taking down elite enemy units, which the rest of your list is already tooled against with all those lascannons. Your best bet might be to drop them, make sure the rest of your list is mobile and avoid CC at all costs. Spending those points on more guns will help ensure the enemy doesn't even make it into CC.

Yeah, your list is pretty tailored towards anti-vehicle. No wonder you are having problems with a horde army and an army that has (almost) no vehicles. You may want to tone it down on the razorbacks or combipreds to become more balanced.

The Land Raider does not take up a FOC slot if you buy it as a transport for terminators. However, it is pretty expensive in a 1500 game... that unit running is running over 500 points... over 600 with the character in there. If you want to play the terminators you kind of need the Land Raider. If you want, see what else you can do with 500 points... sternguard, scouts, dreads, speeders... sometimes you can get more bang for your buck than by taking TH/SS in LRC.

Only other thought is the razorbacks are a little wierd there with 10-man squads. You could make those rhinos and save a ton of points while opening up deployment options since everyone could go in a rhino together if you like. Seems like you could get the firepower back fairly easily with the points you save by using a dev squad, dread, pred, vindi, etc...

-Myst

Assuming you want a tailor made arrmy rather than a generall purpose one, ditto on everything above. At minimum, I'd suggest losing the Land Raider and Terminators, especially in a 1500 point game.

If you put your troops in Rhinos, you will be able to fire out of the ports. I'd rather have that and some Storm Bolters on the Rhinos than Razorbacks at that level. For general games, I put a Lascannon in a 10 man tactical squad. It's a much cheaper upgrade, and you have much more flexibility if you combat squad and split the heavy weapon off.

Another option that's good here are Whirlwinds rather than Predators. Large Templates can be very nice against hordes.

I'd also suggest some 5 man Devastator Squads with 4 missile launchers each. I think these come out to 150 points or so....and they can pack a lot of punch.

Finally, you may want to rethink the Librarian. I just don't think he's bringing you that much with a template psychic power. You'd likely be better off a generic captain, or with someone like Vulkan and stack up on flamers.

Your list is already in good shape, while you may tailor it further to approach horde, do not go all the way and make it anti-horde only since you will then start matching against MEQ and then you are doom.

Librarian with Null Zone is the best HQ all around @ 1500 pts. Null Zone making killing daemons easier. Don't think about captain or other named characters since they cost much more and is aimed toward 2000pts games.

SM is not to do CC. It is a sad truth so you should gear toward sit back and shoot. Your list already have this.

Here is what I would suggest you change:
1- Make your termies 5-man and put them behind cover. What they do is to be the buffer between your firing line and the enemy. That and they provide your librarian with a place to stand and keep popping Null Zone.
2- For the pts of a LRC, get a Thunderfire cannon (4 shots of Str 6 small blast? -_- will outright kill many things). Remember that the thunderfire cannon gives you +1 cover save on ruins AND it has different types of shots, the tactical choice is yours.
3- Without the LRC, pump your 3rd tac squad to 10 man so they get the flamer + ML for free. I think you should have approximately 100 pts left which is your Deadnought will go in.

Here is a 1500 pts list (to the dot)
Librarian - Null Zone - The Avenger - Bolt Pistol
Dreadnought - 1x Assault Cannon
Terminator Assault Squad (TH/SS)

1x Tactical Squad - ML + Flamer - Razorback LasPlas
2x Tactical Squad - ML + Melta - Razorback LasPlas

Predator ACLC
Predator ACLC
Thunderfire Cannon


This list has a mixed of power. Make sure to use your melta when either a Land Raider or a Monolith is close by. Otherwise, focus ALL your lascannon to take down their transport. Then forcing them to take leadership check by killing the troops outside.

Your terminators are going to be useless against mobs of boyz with a nob PC BP. the volume of attacks negates how good your save is. and you dont even have initiative on the orks. 120 attacks. 60hit. 30 wound. role 30 dice and see howmany 1's you role.
I would suggest droping them and going the land speeder typhoon. maybe even a sniper squad to try and pin the hordes.

One unit in the space marine codex I really hate facing with my Daemons are sternguard! They're so adaptable vs any kind of target and they can take combi-meltas to give them some anti-vehicle capability as well.
Orks won't like dragonfire rounds on bit, while my daemons just hate those hellfire rounds! Daemons have the ability to field lots of high toughness troops, but hellfires dont care one bit. It's not nice seeing your prized greater daemon getting a face-full of 'always wounds on a 2+' nastiness. It's also a great unit to counter Fateweaver with, espeically if you can get your libby in range as he'll negate Fatey's re-rolls!

In fact, you might want to consider the following;
- Drop the termies
- Take a 10-man sternguard squad with a smattering of combi-meltas.
- Give your libby termie armour + stormshield for added protection and have him join the sterns.
- Throw it all into a crusader!

I know as a daemon player I would have to make that my #1 target because if it gets amongst my gribblies, it's going to hurt ALOT! Support it with other fast shooty stuff like land speeders and/or a rhino mounted tac squad and it's a nasty in-your-face agressive firebase.

Well the problem is everyone else at my FLGS is heavily mech/MEQ. Space wolves, IG, other vanilla SM, etc. and I dont want to lose to them. Its just these two armies that give me problems. One thing that definitely helps is the extra HS slot thanks to the LRC being a dedicated transport. I think Ill add in devastators (4x ML) and swap a Predator into a dakka pred. That should keep me versatile. Are assault cannon dreadnoughts really worth it? Wouldnt 2x autocannon dreads be better, especially for me?

Revised list:

Librarian
-Null Zone, template power (for MEQs)

Tactical Squad
-10 men, melta, combi melta, ML
-Las/Plas Razorback
Tactical Squad
-10 men, flamer, ML, meltabombs
-Las/Plas Razorback

Terminator Assault Squad
-5 men
-Land Raider Crusader, MM

Devastator Squad
-5 men, 4x ML
-Las/Plas Razorback (to be used by a combat squad from a tactical)
Predator
-lascannon sponsons
Predator
-heavy bolter sponsons


Do you think that would be enough? I dont want to lose against the other armies Im facing, but I definitely hate getting stomped by Orks/Daemons.

You can fiddle with the other bits of your army all you want but a 1500 point marine list is extremely restrictive once you put the LR + Termies in.

Libby; No problem there, avenger/null zone is an excellent and reliable combo, especially against demons.
Tactical Squads; No choice really, you need those scoring troops, and you have the "standard" amount, 20 in 1500. I personally run 20, because they are so ineffective against pretty much anything and are basically one of the worst troop choices in the game. Reasonably well geared as well, although I might suggest switching the melta-bombs for a combi-flamer. Double flamer goodness is decent. Personally, I'd ditch the razors for rhinos, or switch the las/plasma turrets for assault cannons. The las/plas turrets promote a stationary, reactive play style which you really need to break away from. The assault cannon will allow you some movement while maintaining some firepower and they are much better against hordes while still being solid against MeQ and light armor.

Terminators + LR; They look good on paper, they make a mess of MeQ troops.....They suck. In a 1500 point game they annihilate your points. After the 100 for your HQ, the 500ish you are spending on your troops, and the 500ish you are spending here, you have like 400 points for "support". The LR + Termies is known as a "Rock" unit, and single rocks in my experience do not work, at all. That lucky rokkit, or Bolt or whatever first turn that immobilizes the Land Raider will really ruin your plan, and probably your day and seriously, it happens WAY too often to put so many eggs in 1 basket. Even against it's optimal target, MeQ/IG, those melta-guns are far far too effective against the LR to warrant using it in such small games. I personally used to run the LRC + Termie rock myself, I loved it. It was unsubtle and a big obvious threat to my opponent that meant business, and as such constantly got damaged by those lucky first turn lascannons/whatever because it presented such a big and obvious threat. In my opinion, you'd be better off with 2-3 smaller units that pose a lower individual threat, but a more wide-spread and effective collection of units.

Devastators; Suck for vanilla. Sorry to save bro. Over-priced, fragile, not-mobile and far too limiting to a battle plan. Too many units can outflank/come on your board edge/pop-up and just wreck them.

Predators; Both the dakka pred and AC/LC pred are effective, against different targets of course. Just don't expect a lot of damage out of the dakka preds against infantry. Even firing everything at a boyz squad you are looking at ~4 dead orks, hardly amazing, and that's without cover. With a KFF or the invul saves from demons you are looking at 2-3 models.

I'd suggest toasting the razors for rhinos, drop the LR and termies and spend the points on dreads, sternguard, attack bikes, or what i think would be good for you, HF/MM land speeders. The Heavy flamer/MM speeders are fast, flexible and effective against both hordes and mech.

Beating these armies isn't about unit choice so much as tactics. Learning to use tank-shock to group models up for flamer-loving, to block off avenues of approach or push them off objectives is really important. Focusing on big threats and slowing down/getting lower threats busy. Redeploying away from their avenues of approach...etc. All are more important then just having the right units for the job, otherwise I'd just suggest 10 sternguard + 2 hvy flamers + 8 combi-flamers and say good luck.

Lotus wrote:Im having a pretty terrible time versus these armies. My 1500 point list is:

Librarian
-powers: reroll invuls, ap3 template

Tactical Squad
-10 men, melta, ML, Las/Plas Razorback
Tactical Squad
-10 men, flamer, ML, Las/Plas Razorback
Tactical Squad
-5 men, Las/Plas Razorback

Assault Terminator Squad
-6x TH/SS

Land Raider Crusader
-Multi Melta
Predator
-lascannon sponsons
Predator
-Lascannon sponsons

Why are you playing under the C:SM codex? Given the models you have, I suggest using the SW codex. Grey hunters are much better than TAC squads. Everything else can be used in the same method.

The codex you play just dictates the playstyle of your army. If your army are painted like ultrasmurfs, don't feel afraid to play them as SW. The SW codex is there for people who want to focus on tough infantry and extremely heroic ICs. That is what your army looks like, and its what I would use.

I would be inclined to swap the Predator's to be of the Dakka variety for this list.

Also, I like the Terminators, but against Orks/Daemons I would give the Librarian Gate instead of the template, then drop the LR and max out the squad with a mix of Storm Shields and Lightning Claws. This would still leave you with some extra points to swap out the 5 man tactical for a sternguard unit.

You already have 4 scoring units since you will always combat squad the Marines.

The TFC is an underrated unit, it is very good against Daemons and horde armies, but your real MVP against Daemons is Null Zone and the ignore cover fire from Sternguard is brutal.

Your tactic should then be to castle up your army and use the 10 man Termi squad as a barrier against charges.

Finally, more than a SW dex, I think this list fits with Blood Angels given their Fast Vehicles, Shield of Sanguinas and Priests that can be Force Multipliers.

calypso2ts wrote:I would be inclined to swap the Predator's to be of the Dakka variety for this list.

Also, I like the Terminators, but against Orks/Daemons I would give the Librarian Gate instead of the template, then drop the LR and max out the squad with a mix of Storm Shields and Lightning Claws. This would still leave you with some extra points to swap out the 5 man tactical for a sternguard unit.

You already have 4 scoring units since you will always combat squad the Marines.

The TFC is an underrated unit, it is very good against Daemons and horde armies, but your real MVP against Daemons is Null Zone and the ignore cover fire from Sternguard is brutal.

Your tactic should then be to castle up your army and use the 10 man Termi squad as a barrier against charges.

Finally, more than a SW dex, I think this list fits with Blood Angels given their Fast Vehicles, Shield of Sanguinas and Priests that can be Force Multipliers.

I agree with this post in some ways. Combat squadding two Tac Squads is definitely enough troops for a 1500 point game. Swapping the other 5 man squad for Sternguard is a great idea.

Running this list as BA would be alright, but then you have a BA Razorspam-ish list with Tactical Marines instead of Assault Marines, which kind of negates the point of Razorspam. Plus the Red Thirst and Sanguinary Priests would take the fluff of the army in a completely different direction. SW at least don't have 1/6 of their army go crazy, and their unique advantages (Counter-attack and Acute Senses) don't feel as different from normal Marines in play.

I'm not generally a fan of 10 man Termie squads for running interference, because they have very poor mobility, their only source of extra mobility (Gate) leaves them unable to assault, and they need to take up a very large footprint to fulfill their function. A canny player could hit them on one flank, kite the squad out of position, survive that round of combat because only half the squad gets to attack, and then let the rest of the army rush into the gap. If you're not going to run Assault Termies as a dedicated counterassault unit in a LR, I'd advise not running them at all.

Roboute wrote:Running this list as BA would be alright, but then you have a BA Razorspam-ish list with Tactical Marines instead of Assault Marines, which kind of negates the point of Razorspam. Plus the Red Thirst and Sanguinary Priests would take the fluff of the army in a completely different direction. SW at least don't have 1/6 of their army go crazy, and their unique advantages (Counter-attack and Acute Senses) don't feel as different from normal Marines in play..

Thats why I suggested SW.
SW grey hunters are all around good troops. They can have 2 special weapons in a 10 man squad, have two CC weapons, and have special rules that are useful for cheaper models. As TAC marines are the backbone of his army, its a no-brainer IMHO to move to a SW list.

I had considered going with a second codex. If it weren't for the excess of Space Wolves players at my FLGS I would definitely have gone with them. They seem perfect for my shooty style of play. Blood Angels are an option, but all their stuff is more expensive and really only marginally better considering the models I already have (tanks are fast, Assault Terminators really aren't any better, Psyker powers aren't the ones I like (except Might of Heroes looks very useful in an attack deprived army like SM). It would take a big investment into different new models before I could really get any advantage from switching codexes I think.

If it matters, I do have 9x Assault Squad marines and 10x Scout Squads. I've also got another 5x regular terminators (storm bolter power fist w/ 1x captain). I don't have anything else yet though.

I think I'll keep trying to tweak it. One reason I haven't removed the LRC and assault terminators is because I can't even reach 1500 points without them. At least not without a seriously poor army composition.

The problem is that there are only a few viable builds in today's meta for C:SM. These are summarized below
* Vulcan TL flamers and Melta
* Bike armies with bikes as troops
* Shrike armies with 10 TH/SS fleeting terminators and support

If you want to keep with C:SM, I suggest going the Shrike route. Here is a quick summary of one of the best shrike armies Ive seen that my friend plays.

His logic is the TH/SS attract so much attention, the rest of his army can do what they need to. By jamming the inflitrating, fleeting terminators down your throat, you have to deal with it. On turn 1, he drops in 2 sternguard pods and pops what he needs to with them. His other TAC pod he waits to drop it on an objective for contesting/controlling. His speeders and predators are used to take down light infantry or transports.
I have played against this army a number of times, and I find its one of the most frustrating ones to deal with. Fleeting TH/SS terminators is just sick.

10 TH/SS termies
2 Sternguard squads w/combi-melta and drop pods

1 scout squad for objective camping
1 TAC squad in pod

Land speeders 2 HB, or typhoons

Predators with AC/LC sponsons.