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Hello there.

I was thinking about Alpharius recently due to Deliverance Lost and I was wondering about the events on Eskrador. My questions run thus:

1) Did it go straight to fighting, or did Alpharius and Gulliman meet?

2) Was there any contact between the Legions before Eskrador?

Basically, what I was thinking was: Is it possible that Alpharius tried to rejoin the Imperium following the HH? Or was he telling Gulliman about the Cabal and why the AL really sided with Horus and/or providing him with info on the traitor Legions, and the fight on Eskrador was just a cover up?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Castiel

Castiel wrote:Hello there.

I was thinking about Alpharius recently due to Deliverance Lost and I was wondering about the events on Eskrador. My questions run thus:

1) Did it go straight to fighting, or did Alpharius and Gulliman meet?

2) Was there any contact between the Legions before Eskrador?

Basically, what I was thinking was: Is it possible that Alpharius tried to rejoin the Imperium following the HH? Or was he telling Gulliman about the Cabal and why the AL really sided with Horus and/or providing him with info on the traitor Legions, and the fight on Eskrador was just a cover up?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Castiel

Alpharius did not die on Eskrador or did he actually die. Its a false document.

Asherian Command wrote:Alpharius did not die on Eskrador or did he actually die. Its a false document.

I fear you may have missed the point of my post and the question therein!

Castiel wrote:

1) Did it go straight to fighting, or did Alpharius and Gulliman meet?

Yes.

Castiel wrote:
2) Was there any contact between the Legions before Eskrador?

Potentially.


Welcome to the Alpha Legion, recruit. Rule number #1: Do not talk about the Alpha Legion. Especially, do not answer questions about the Alpha Legion.

I'm not too big an expert on fluff but from what I remember from doing some research on Alpharius, he truly hated Gulliman, so I doubt that if he would try to get back with the Imperium, he would do it via Gulliman. Other then that, no idea, I'm hoping this thread will teach me something on Alpharius as well.
It seems uncertain whether or not he died in the fight against Gulliman and what he did afterwards.

Personally I could imagine that since his original plan failed he would try to help the Imperium in it's fight against chaos, but knowing that the loyalists probably would not forgive him, especially since he didn't have any close friends among the still loyal primarchs (IIRC), out of personal guilt and because much of his legion has officially turned to chaos, he probably just fights as a sort of renegade in what ever battle suits him and seems reasonable to his interests. Fighting the enemies of the Imperium sometimes and whooping Ultramarines when the occasion arises.

I agree with Fire for Effect. There must have been another one of Alpharius' brothers that would have accepted him better than Gulliman.

If this is found in Deliverance Lost, just let me know (I'm not there yet) but in Legion:



Why was the Cabal's vision wrong? What happened that changed the course of events? Or are we just supposed to ignore this whole idea?

I see what you're saying. It makes sense. I shall try to explain some of my reasoning behind the idea.

I was thinking that as Gulliman was now in charge of the Imperium that Alpharius might have tried to talk to him. Also, do we really know if Alpharius really hated Gulliman, and that it wasn't an act like a lot of Alpharius' stuff?

As for the failing of the Cabal's prediction, that is the reason why I thought that he might have tried to rejoin the Imperium. I've only just started Deliverance Lost, it was just an idea that hit me.

Also, 1000th post. Hooray!

In Legion didnt Alphie say that though he didn't get along with Guilliman they were still brothers and he still loved him?

chaos0xomega wrote:In Legion didnt Alphie say that though he didn't get along with Guilliman they were still brothers and he still loved him?

Well of course he loved him, he is his brother. But he can hate him too. Do you have siblings? I find this a connection I can easily make with Alpharius. I sometime HATE my brothers, but I still love them. Granted, if I was genuinely looking to ask a huge favor of one of them, I would most assuredly not go to the one I bicker and fight with most

chaos0xomega wrote:In Legion didnt Alphie say that though he didn't get along with Guilliman they were still brothers and he still loved him?

Well from all we know, it is thought that Guilliman fought and killed Alpharius. I'm not sure how that counts as loving

The idea that the whole story of them fighting was just a cover up, they forgave each other and Alpharius joined the Imperium seems a little unlikely since it is also said that the Ultramarines suffered extremely heavy losses during said battle, which would seem weird if Alpharius and Guilliman decided they were cool, but let there men fight to the death... Unless of course they just faked the death of all their men....
Ok to much conspiracy, I stick with my old point, they probably fought, who knows if they talked, Alpharius seemed to be more into revenge then rejoining the Imperium or else he might have chosen to contact a Primarch who does not happen to be a sort of nemesis to him. Alpharius or one of his lookalikes (or both) fought Guilliman and died. If Alpharius is still alive I personally doubt he turned to chaos, but rather just acts as a renegade doing what ever he thinks will achieve his goals.

Castiel wrote:Hello there.

I was thinking about Alpharius recently due to Deliverance Lost and I was wondering about the events on Eskrador. My questions run thus:

1) Did it go straight to fighting, or did Alpharius and Gulliman meet?

2) Was there any contact between the Legions before Eskrador?

I would think that it immediately went straight to fighting, but perhaps the reason Alpharius actually let Guilliman find and assualt him (or his lookalike) during the battle was so that he could talk to him. Guilliman probably wouldn't even consider letting what he percieved to be a sly, manipulative traitor contact him before the battle.

Basically, what I was thinking was: Is it possible that Alpharius tried to rejoin the Imperium following the HH? Or was he telling Gulliman about the Cabal and why the AL really sided with Horus and/or providing him with info on the traitor Legions, and the fight on Eskrador was just a cover up?

Alpharius probably knew that he would never be able to rejoin the Imperium, but he may have wanted to tell Guilliman his motivations. He knew that he could never convince Guilliman to surrender the Imperium to destroy Chaos, and what leader in their right mind would? Alpharius could at least tell him about this prophecy, convince him it was true even, or, just as likely, it could have been another reason entirely, as this theory is just assuming that Alpharius did trust the Cabal.

Castiel wrote:I was thinking about Alpharius recently due to Deliverance Lost and I was wondering about the events on Eskrador. My questions run thus:

We really don't at this point have information enough to speculate. We may or may not find out before the Horus Heresy novels are done.

Ignatius wrote:Why was the Cabal's vision wrong? What happened that changed the course of events? Or are we just supposed to ignore this whole idea?

The simplest assumption is that the Cabal were duped by the Ruinous Powers, or that they were lying for their own reasons. It has been speculated that we may discover the Cabal to be behind the Tau's sudden unification and technological advancement.

Why do people keep saying the Cabal's visiov failed?

They said either horus would win and civil war would destroy humanity and chaos due to horus' self loathing

or

the emprah would win and afetr 10-20000 years of stagnation the galaxy would inexorably fall under chaos

seems like the second one came relatively true

The Cabal were wrong because they said that either

a)The Alpha Legion would help the Emperor, the Emperor would win but die and the Imperium would stagnate and let Chaos take over.

b)The Alpha Legion would help Horus, Horus would win and destroy humanity.

They were wrong because the Legion joined Horus, but Horus still lost.


Wasn't it more Guilliman hated Alpharius than Alpharius hated Guilliman? Alpharius just decided to ignore him after Guilliman calling him a coward or something similar.

Durza wrote:The Cabal were wrong because they said that either

a)The Alpha Legion would help the Emperor, the Emperor would win but die and the Imperium would stagnate and let Chaos take over.

b)The Alpha Legion would help Horus, Horus would win and destroy humanity.

Except that's not what they said.

Their vision had nothing to do with the Alpha Legion at all. It had only to do with the Loyalists or Traitors winning and what the ramifications of each would be.

If the loyalists win, humanity stagnates and drags the galaxy down with them. If the traitors win, Horus drags humanity and chaos down with him.

Neither result was dependent on the Alpha Legion, they sought to convince the Alpha Legion to help make the latter happen. Which they agreed to, but they ultimately failed to secure Horus' victory, thus damning themselves for no reason.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Durza wrote:The Cabal were wrong because they said that either

a)The Alpha Legion would help the Emperor, the Emperor would win but die and the Imperium would stagnate and let Chaos take over.

b)The Alpha Legion would help Horus, Horus would win and destroy humanity.

Except that's not what they said.

Their vision had nothing to do with the Alpha Legion at all. It had only to do with the Loyalists or Traitors winning and what the ramifications of each would be.

If the loyalists win, humanity stagnates and drags the galaxy down with them. If the traitors win, Horus drags humanity and chaos down with him.

Neither result was dependent on the Alpha Legion, they sought to convince the Alpha Legion to help make the latter happen. Which they agreed to, but they ultimately failed to secure Horus' victory, thus damning themselves for no reason.

The cabal pretty much came out and said that the Alpha Legion had an important role to play. They told Alpharius what would happen in both situations (Imperium winning versus chaos winning) and said that the Alpha Legion must side with Horus, because if they do, then Horus will win and chaos would eventually be destroyed.

They didn't tell Alpharius that he must join Horus until he asked them, but they did eventually come out and say that the fate of the galaxy rests in his dicision or something like that.

Ignatius wrote:

The cabal pretty much came out and said that the Alpha Legion had an important role to play. They told Alpharius what would happen in both situations (Imperium winning versus chaos winning) and said that the Alpha Legion must side with Horus, because if they do, then Horus will win and chaos would eventually be destroyed.

They didn't tell Alpharius that he must join Horus until he asked them, but they did eventually come out and say that the fate of the galaxy rests in his dicision or something like that.

They were nowhere near that explicit. They convinced Alpharius that Horus had to win, for the good of the galaxy, and told him that he should join Horus to help accomplish that. It was never said that the Alpha Legion were to be the deciding factor, or at least I don't remember that. I have the book at home, I'll look it up later this evening.

The Cabal's vision was entirely accurate, as far as we can tell.

Durza wrote:Wasn't it more Guilliman hated Alpharius than Alpharius hated Guilliman? Alpharius just decided to ignore him after Guilliman calling him a coward or something similar.

This is what I remember too. Alpharius was ambivalent, but Guilliman openly criticised his tactics.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

The cabal pretty much came out and said that the Alpha Legion had an important role to play. They told Alpharius what would happen in both situations (Imperium winning versus chaos winning) and said that the Alpha Legion must side with Horus, because if they do, then Horus will win and chaos would eventually be destroyed.

They didn't tell Alpharius that he must join Horus until he asked them, but they did eventually come out and say that the fate of the galaxy rests in his dicision or something like that.

They were nowhere near that explicit. They convinced Alpharius that Horus had to win, for the good of the galaxy, and told him that he should join Horus to help accomplish that. It was never said that the Alpha Legion were to be the deciding factor, or at least I don't remember that. I have the book at home, I'll look it up later this evening.

The Cabal's vision was entirely accurate, as far as we can tell.

I finished the book a couple of days ago, along with four or so other Horus Heresy novels. I may have blended together different pieces from other books into one huge story. I look forward to what it actually says.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

The cabal pretty much came out and said that the Alpha Legion had an important role to play. They told Alpharius what would happen in both situations (Imperium winning versus chaos winning) and said that the Alpha Legion must side with Horus, because if they do, then Horus will win and chaos would eventually be destroyed.

They didn't tell Alpharius that he must join Horus until he asked them, but they did eventually come out and say that the fate of the galaxy rests in his dicision or something like that.

They were nowhere near that explicit. They convinced Alpharius that Horus had to win, for the good of the galaxy, and told him that he should join Horus to help accomplish that. It was never said that the Alpha Legion were to be the deciding factor, or at least I don't remember that. I have the book at home, I'll look it up later this evening.

The Cabal's vision was entirely accurate, as far as we can tell.

Except that when Alpharius told the Cabal that he would stand with the Emperor, they showed him the vision of what seems to be the current Imperium, claiming that it would be the result.

Durza wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

The cabal pretty much came out and said that the Alpha Legion had an important role to play. They told Alpharius what would happen in both situations (Imperium winning versus chaos winning) and said that the Alpha Legion must side with Horus, because if they do, then Horus will win and chaos would eventually be destroyed.

They didn't tell Alpharius that he must join Horus until he asked them, but they did eventually come out and say that the fate of the galaxy rests in his dicision or something like that.

They were nowhere near that explicit. They convinced Alpharius that Horus had to win, for the good of the galaxy, and told him that he should join Horus to help accomplish that. It was never said that the Alpha Legion were to be the deciding factor, or at least I don't remember that. I have the book at home, I'll look it up later this evening.

The Cabal's vision was entirely accurate, as far as we can tell.

Except that when Alpharius told the Cabal that he would stand with the Emperor, they showed him the vision of what seems to be the current Imperium, claiming that it would be the result.

The prophecy ironically fulfilled in spite of efforts to change the forseen future is a staple of fiction - my first thought upon reading Legion was that it was principally a homage to Dune, in which the paradox of foresight is of course a prominent plot device.

Besides, the Heresy novels are overflowing with bitter ironies, right from "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor...".