Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a unit of scarabs is hit by a str6 weapon, and 6 are wounded (lets assume there are more than 6 in the unit), when i went to remove bases by allocating wounds and then resolving instant death, so in my case i would allocate the 6 wounds to 2 bases and nobody would suffer from `instant death` as nobody who had suffered a wound was still alive, but the owner of the str6 weapon clamied that i should remove 6 bases from the unit, which is correct?, Because we ended up playing it his way and those 4 scarabs stopped me from destroying his landraider of deathstar doom.

Instant Death removes whole models first, where possible.
Page 26, main rules.

If a wound is powerful enough to inflict instant death then you must remove entire models, starting with unwounded models.

You are confusing the allocate wounds, roll saves and remove casualties parts of the rule book. You need to remove whole models for ID from a wound group. There is only one wound group for the scarabs.

which is correct?

As others have said, you should remove 6 bases from the unit.

Also, had it been a Blast/Template weapon you would have had to remove 12 bases from the unit, due to vulnerable to blast/template.

DeathReaper wrote:which is correct?

As others have said, you should remove 6 bases from the unit.

Also, had it been a Blast/Template weapon you would have had to remove 12 bases from the unit, due to vulnerable to blast/template.

This right here. Beware of IG Hellhounds.....they eat swarms for breakfast. I've dropped 10-12 scarab bases without breaking a sweat multiple times with a single shot.

Nungunz wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:which is correct?

As others have said, you should remove 6 bases from the unit.

Also, had it been a Blast/Template weapon you would have had to remove 12 bases from the unit, due to vulnerable to blast/template.

This right here. Beware of IG Hellhounds.....they eat swarms for breakfast. I've dropped 10-12 scarab bases without breaking a sweat multiple times with a single shot.

AKA How I learned to stop worrying about psycannon shots and embrace the incinerator

Scarab Assault or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Strength Six Templates. Sounds like a 60'ss black comedy...

Eldar Nightspinners vs Scarabs.. nom nom nom.

DeathReaper wrote:Also, had it been a Blast/Template weapon you would have had to remove 12 bases from the unit, due to vulnerable to blast/template.

This is something I have yet to understand. The way my local game store has been playing is every hit becomes 2 hits, so 6 S6 hits becomes 12, so you roll 12 saves. Looking at the rules, I think that only 6 saves should be rolled and then you double the unsaved wounds. Statistically it should end up the same, so I haven't said anything. However, 6 S6 hits from a blast weapon would not become 12 hits, the rules say unsaved wounds get doubled, but unsaved wounds remove the model anyway, so 6 hits that are allocated to 6 different multi-wound models (because they are each insta-death) and then rolled for. Unsaved wounds become 2 wounds but the model is dead so it doesn't matter.

As I said, my local game store is not playing this way, but it's how I think it should be, based on the rules.

Tye_Informer wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Also, had it been a Blast/Template weapon you would have had to remove 12 bases from the unit, due to vulnerable to blast/template.

This is something I have yet to understand. The way my local game store has been playing is every hit becomes 2 hits, so 6 S6 hits becomes 12, so you roll 12 saves. Looking at the rules, I think that only 6 saves should be rolled and then you double the unsaved wounds. Statistically it should end up the same, so I haven't said anything. However, 6 S6 hits from a blast weapon would not become 12 hits, the rules say unsaved wounds get doubled, but unsaved wounds remove the model anyway, so 6 hits that are allocated to 6 different multi-wound models (because they are each insta-death) and then rolled for. Unsaved wounds become 2 wounds but the model is dead so it doesn't matter.

As I said, my local game store is not playing this way, but it's how I think it should be, based on the rules.

You allocate 6 wounds to the Scarab wound group (since they're all equipped the same).
You roll 6 saves.
You fail all 6 saves. 6 wounds are doubled to 12 wounds.
You allocate a wound, remove a base. Repeat until you've allocated 12 wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:You allocate 6 wounds to the Scarab wound group (since they're all equipped the same).
You roll 6 saves.
You fail all 6 saves. 6 wounds are doubled to 12 wounds.
You allocate a wound, remove a base. Repeat until you've allocated 12 wounds.

This is the correct way to play it. The vulnerable to blasts/templates rule specifies that it doubles unsaved wounds.

Right - the distinction most people don't get is that you allocate to models after you roll saves - not before.

Ok... let me see if I get this.

Blast targets the swarm... roll to scatter.
Roll to wound
Roll to save
Allocate wounds
Double wounds on allocated models. ID bases that have wounds.

Anpu-adom wrote:Ok... let me see if I get this.

Blast targets the swarm... roll to scatter.
Roll to wound
Roll to save
Allocate wounds
Double wounds on allocated models. ID bases that have wounds.

No. Double wounds, then allocate.

Anpu-adom wrote:Ok... let me see if I get this.

Blast targets the swarm... roll to scatter.
Roll to wound
Roll to save
Allocate wounds
Double wounds on allocated models. ID bases that have wounds.

That is kind of correct.

You must remove 1 base for each ID wound inflicted.

Blast targets the swarm... roll to scatter.
Determine hits
Roll to wound
Allocate wounds to wound groups, if only one wound group skip this step.
Roll to saves
Tally Unsaved wounds and remove whole models where possible and remove 1 base for each ID wound inflicted.

DeathReaper wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:Ok... let me see if I get this.

Blast targets the swarm... roll to scatter.
Roll to wound
Roll to save
Allocate wounds
Double wounds on allocated models. ID bases that have wounds.

That is kind of correct.

You must remove 1 base for each ID wound inflicted.

Blast targets the swarm... roll to scatter.
Determine hits
Roll to wound
Allocate wounds to wound groups, if only one wound group skip this step.
Roll to saves
Tally Unsaved wounds and remove whole models where possible and remove 1 base for each ID wound inflicted.

I must be blind, because I'm not seeing that in the rule book. Specifically the, "Must remove a base for each ID wound inflicted."

I guess I'm just bothered by the idea that more swarms can be killed than the number originally hit by the blast.

Instant Death, Page 26

Ok, I found it... it's worded weirdly.

"If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove on unwounded model for each unsaved wound that cases instant death."

As someone pointed out, it's not doubled until after saves. *Note to self, always keep scarabs in cover...*

Fine by me, I'll just Incinerate them instead of blasting them.

Exactly! It's vulnerable to blasts/templates!

Anpu-adom wrote:As someone pointed out, it's not doubled until after saves. *Note to self, always keep scarabs in cover...*

And this is why I've dropped my scout sentinel squadron for a hellhound. Both work very well, but with the new necrons on the field I'll run with the hellhound for now.......until players finally figure out that scarab farm is very one-dimensional and easy to beat.

It's like Leafblower all over again. At first everyone was like "ZOMG OP".....and then they realized...."Oh wait, leafblower is actually kinda easy to beat".

Or like Nob Bikers

Or like.....etc, etc, etc.

Anpu-adom wrote: *Note to self, always keep scarabs in cover...*

Now I'm wondering about going to ground to save them if they are in the open. That gets them a 5+, which is as good as their armor was anyway.

Of course, if hit by a S6 flame template, then there is no helping me. Keep them spread out, I guess.

Tye_Informer wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote: *Note to self, always keep scarabs in cover...*

Now I'm wondering about going to ground to save them if they are in the open. That gets them a 5+, which is as good as their armor was anyway.

Of course, if hit by a S6 flame template, then there is no helping me. Keep them spread out, I guess.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: Does a unit with Stealth that is in the open have its
cover save improved from none to 6+? (p76)
A: No, there must be a cover save to start with for it to
be improved.

kirsanth wrote:

Tye_Informer wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote: *Note to self, always keep scarabs in cover...*

Now I'm wondering about going to ground to save them if they are in the open. That gets them a 5+, which is as good as their armor was anyway.

Of course, if hit by a S6 flame template, then there is no helping me. Keep them spread out, I guess.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: Does a unit with Stealth that is in the open have its
cover save improved from none to 6+? (p76)
A: No, there must be a cover save to start with for it to
be improved.

Going to Ground page 24, "Units that are not currently in a position that would give them a cover save can still go to ground...and receive a 6+ cover save."

Go to ground gives a 6+ cover save, stealth improves cover save by 1, so a swarm that goes to ground gets a 5+ cover save.

Gotcha. That makes a lot more sense than the way I read that.


/boggle

But then you can not do anything with them on your turn, since they have gone to ground, and they will get shot again.

Probably easier to just take the wounds, spawn a few more, and assault.

Btw, who decides that double wounds happen before ID?
Could just as easily be said that they get a str6 hit, then ID so the W isn't doubled?
Seems too easy to remove swarms from any list. Most armies got several str6+ blast/templates.
Not that I want to argue it, seeing as i play guard :-)
Just feel sorry for those playing with swarms.

If the wound was not doubled, then the vunlerable to blasts/templates rule was ignored.

So you would have to double the woulds first to apply the vulnerable USR, then see if any of the wounds cause ID.

Say a unit of 6 scarabs (T3) is hit by a Space Marine with a flamer (template, S4).

The marine inflicts 5 wounds. The scarabs save 3.

Do you immediately place 2 wounds on the scarabs and put both on 1 base? No, because the unit suffered 2 unsaved wounds and before you place the wounds you double the wounds as per vulnerable USR. You then have 4 wounds to allocate, which would remove 1 base and place 1 wound on another base.

You follow the same procedure with any blast or template weapon. The difference is that if the weapon's strength causes ID, then at the time you place the wounds you would be removing 1 base for each wound.

You double unsaved wounds

this comes before Remove Casualties

THATS why you double wounds that cause ID; they happen at separate steps