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I'm not sure if this is best suited for here or the RP section, but it's primarily about background, so here goes.

We're starting a Dark Heresy campaign and one member of the group is a cleric. I'm not sure if he randomly rolled this or chose it, but he's taken the belief that his as a member of Ecclesiarchy, his character has complete authority over just about anyone and has taken it upon himself to be the leader, make all decisions, order everyone around and practically on the verge of shooting anyone who questions him, let alone disobeys (he was displeased with my character for merely gesturing for him to move up to a corner I was about to go around to deal with some enemies).
Given the player's personality (quite insular, the gaming club seems to be his primary outlet), I'm not overly surprised by all this, but also makes any out of game comments difficult to make so I'd prefer to keep things in-game.

So, what powers of authority does a cleric (which now being a member of an Inquisitor's retinue is technically no longer a full member of the Ecclesiarchy) have outside of matters relating to faith?

It sounds harsh, but spending my club evenings doing what someone (not the GM) tells me to do without discussion/debate isn't going to be much fun for me or the rest of the group. I'd rather this be a team effort but I don't want to just tell the guy 'stop being bossy' to his face.

Clergy of the Ecclesiarchy does have a lot of influence over the common Imperial folk. With the exception of AdMech Forge Worlds and Astartes fiefdoms, just about everyone is supposed to attend church and be a faithful devoted servant of the Emperor. Confessors accompany Imperial Guard regiments providing spiritual guidance and can easily whip half a planet's population into a zealous frenzy for a sanctioned pogrom against some minority (mutants, heretics, people who wear differently coloured socks, you name it). The Adeptus Ministorum watches over the people's loyalty to the Creed and assigns penances ranging from paying a fee to corporeal mortification to service in the Frateris to execution as a heretic.

Now, I'm not sure if they have a legal right to do so - but whatever the case, nobody actually seems interested to step in on the principle of a cleric acting like this (it may well be a case of "perceived authority" - someone on the FFG forums has likened this to medieval witch hunts, which means that a cleric's powers extend as far as the locals allow). Which is precisely how Cardinals can occasionally turn entire systems rogue. This risk is why the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas act as some sort of "quality control" amongst the Ecclesiarchy, stepping in when some overzealous cleric grows stupid and bold, combining his personal interpretation of the Ministorum's divine purpose with a reluctance to follow orders when his superior tells him to sit the feth down and stop being an ass.

As for your problem, there are two things to keep in mind:

1: There's a difference between some shmuck farmer or factory worker and an official in the employ of one of the great Imperial Adepta. For example, if your cleric starts to feth with the local Arbites or the Imperium-appointed governor, they may budge and relent and allow it - or they may tell him to STFU before they throw him into some dark cell. The response depends entirely on how said official relates to the Ministorum, the cleric's own behavior and political influence (usually his Ministorum rank), as well as what he actually wants from them. In case of doubt, the official may simply pass a note to your cleric's superior which may or may not trigger consequences, probably at least in the form of a reprimand.

2: Since you're playing Dark Heresy, I'm assuming your group is a cell of Acolytes - which in turn means that the cleric's authority over the other player characters is suspended. Inquisition > Ecclesiarchy. If there's a problem within your group, your Inquisitor should intervene. Maybe appoint a Prime?

IMO He does not have any authority over:

Any military organisations (Unless part of he command structure)
The Mechanicus
The Inquisiton

in fact pretty much he has no authority over anyone especially now - except that which people let him have when threatens the wrath of the Emperor. Now it could be just good roleplaying being a firebrand- although I get the impression you are not convinvced.

However if he irritates the wrong person he is likely to get a severe repremand from his own superiors - be they Inquisitorial or Church.

ah well - both ninjaed and spelled out far more effectively by Lynata

I just don't want to 'tread' on this guy; from what I have gathered, he's been 'trod on' quite a lot in the past and I actually have a lot of sympathy for the poor bloke.
But aside from whether he's not playing the character 'correctly', if the manner in which it's played carries on it's either going to end up with us killing or allowing him to be killed, people leaving the group or the other four of us being quite miserable.
So it's kinda sensitive and I'm not sure how to go about this in a way that works and can be accepted by everyone. I'd prefer to steer him in-game and rather not have to be 'that guy' and approach the GM.

Hmm, that sounds tricky. A hint from one of the cleric's superiors should achieve a lot, but this is something only the GM can do. For the acolytes, I don't know if there is much they could do to steer the character - except for pointing out that they only take orders from the Inquisitor now or something like that, though even this could go horribly wrong.
If someone gets shot, the Inquisitor would very likely become active by himself - but then it's probably too late for at least one of you. That said, you might try to engineer a display of this internal dissent in front of the Inquisitor, hoping that the GM catches the hint?

You might also bring it up as a discussion amongst the players, though. Depending on how well y'all get along, this might be the most productive approach. Just list your points, that you're not too happy with this kind of "friction" in your group and that you think it might violate the background - depending on what exactly happened and what your cleric thinks he should be able to get away with. As Mr. Morden mentioned it could also just be roleplaying zeal, but even then there's ways to pull it off in a manner that doesn't create a conflict amongst the players.

Dribble Joy wrote:
We're starting a Dark Heresy campaign and one member of the group is a cleric. I'm not sure if he randomly rolled this or chose it, but he's taken the belief that his as a member of Ecclesiarchy, his character has complete authority over just about anyone and has taken it upon himself to be the leader, make all decisions, order everyone around and practically on the verge of shooting anyone who questions him, let alone disobeys (he was displeased with my character for merely gesturing for him to move up to a corner I was about to go around to deal with some enemies).

This is exactly the kind of authority the Ecclesiarchy believes themselves to have. They think of themselves as the greatest authority in existence and act that way. It's their standard operation procedure to just assume they are in command of everything. They aren't. But the thing about humanity is they succumb to what they think is an authority figure pretty quickly.

Perhaps you can make sure this player understands they don't really have that kind of authority but that he's doing a good job acting like a member of the Ecclesiarchy. If he's unaware, this will lesson any shock he has when some NPC eventually does not respond to his wishes.

One problem I have is, as a Hiver, I have no real knowledge of the Imperium and am unfamiliar with the legal position with regards to the Adeptus, Ecclesiarchy and other organisations (especially the Inquisition), so I can't even explain to him the nature of their authority.

Either have your group turn on him and kill him (to prove a point) or explain the Imperium to him.

No one has authority over the AdMech save the Emperor and possibly the HLoT.
The Inquisition technically has authority over everyone.
The SM are an independent force though technically answer to Inq and HLoT (debatable)
IG answer to pretty much everyone save AdMech and SM.
SoB answer to Ecclesiarchy.
Inq answer to the Emperor and themselves.
Individual planets answer to the governor who answers to the sector governor who answers to segmentum command who answers to the HLoT.
The Ecclesiarchy used to be able to have dual command but no longer do.
They are limited very forcefully, however if you did want to play a band of religious warriors it would fly that a group of militants could follow a preacher/cleric into battle.

Kudos for wanting to be as gentle as possible with him. Unfortunately the IoM is set up on purpose for this kind of thing, which is usually decided by connections, force of will and personality... and force (or the credible threat thereof).

Prefaced with some kind of 'I'm a bit of a stickler for folks being in character' you can try (in character) Intimidation, or if he has a high Fel then point out he will realistically be a bit more diplomatic and courteous in his dealings with folks.

If that doesn't work then let him be hoist by his own petard (send him off to get killed by some heretics if he's that full-on) and to the devil with him. You tried and there's more of you guys trying to enjoy yourselves than there is of him (utilitarianism ftw!).

[PS: Having been trod on is no excuse for being a stroker - it's not your responsibility to properly socialise him.]

To quote a Hierophant in the Dark Heresy books: "Of course this is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy. Why? Because it involves the Imperium, of course."

To many people in the Imperium, the church and state are inseparable. How much authority each individual member has, on the other hand, depends as always on politics. But they can have a pretty large sway, even with the reforms Sebastian Thor put in, due to large amounts of money and large amounts of followers.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:We're starting a Dark Heresy campaign and one member of the group is a cleric. I'm not sure if he randomly rolled this or chose it, but he's taken the belief that his as a member of Ecclesiarchy, his character has complete authority over just about anyone and has taken it upon himself to be the leader, make all decisions, order everyone around and practically on the verge of shooting anyone who questions him, let alone disobeys (he was displeased with my character for merely gesturing for him to move up to a corner I was about to go around to deal with some enemies).

This is exactly the kind of authority the Ecclesiarchy believes themselves to have. They think of themselves as the greatest authority in existence and act that way. It's their standard operation procedure to just assume they are in command of everything. They aren't.

A funny thing from the Enforcer trilogy was a cleric trying to browbeat one of the Emperor's Arbites.



Priests have power, but those that wish to reach old age know when to use it, why and how. Interfering with the work of other Imperial organisations is bad for business, and a low-ranked priest really should stick to encouraging the professionals to do their work for the Emperor instead of trying to direct them.

Yeah, although the Ecclesiarchy have a lot of influence, so do all members of the Adepta. To the common Imperial law-abiding citizen, they may fearfully do anything an Ecclesiarchal Cleric says, just like they'd do anything an Arbitor says.

But within the Adepta, there are a hell of a lot of politics, as seen in Matthew Farrer's Enforcer series. In this, the Arbites defer to the Ecclesiarchy on religious matters ONLY. They'll put down or stop a purge if they think it's illegal or causes public disorder, for example.

And, as the Black Library books show, the Imperium is full of people who know they SHOULD be pious, but don't really give a feth. To your standard underhive scum, the preacher may be a figure of authority, or a jumped up cleric who'll get shot if he tries to boss the scum around. It all depends...

Imperial politics is very complicated and convoluted. The Ecclesiarchy has tons of authority over your average Imperial, probably a level only rivaled by the Inquisition and Arbites. That being said their authority over wars (beyond giving it their blessing or authorizing them) and groups like the Mechanicus/Space Marines is extremely minimal.

Complicated and convoluted, indeed - so much so that the various Adepta can even get into armed skirmishes solely because neither initiator can agree on a common hierarchy anywhere below the Terran Senate. So when it comes to blows it may take a while for either the Inquisition or the High Lords to intervene (in the worst cases) - but more likely, it is someone in the organisation's own hierarchy noticing that one of his guys messed up, so he gets told to stand down before the situation escalates. For whilst at the lowest level, the Emperor's servants may very well act with all their ingrained zeal, the higher-ups are usually somewhat more seasoned and do see the greater picture.

An example:

"[...] An uneasy compromise has been reached over the Millennia, which can be summed up as an agreement to differ. The Ecclesiarchy does not send Confessors and Missionaries to the Space Marine worlds and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes do not interfere with the Adeptus Ministorum. Space Marine Chaplains are given their precious Rosarius by the Ecclesiarchy as a symbolic link between the two organisations, but the Chaplains still preach their own version of the Imperial Creed to their brethren. This uneasy truce has been shattered at times when a particularly zealous Cardinal or Confessor has roused the ire of the Space Marine Chapters with his words or deeds. These feuds are usually resolved quickly, though not always without bloodshed, and the relative peace between the two organisations returns."

"As we are all aware, the Order of the Argent Shroud are renowned for their mandate of regulating the activities of not just members of the Ecclesiarchy, but of other Imperial organisations they come into contact with as well. Whilst I appreciate their dedication and success at rooting out traitors and dissenters within our midst, the effect upon the general morale of any fighting arm during their investigations almost always depreciates as their purges continue.
We may be fortunate that incumbent Canoness Carmina is a little less zealous than her predecessors, particularly where the Adeptus Astartes are concerned. I recommend you consult Imperial record Ref: Jan/44698822/SMG regarding the attacks on the forward bases of the Angels Vermillion whilst the Order was under the leadership of Canoness Dissenta."

In general, I recommend taking a look at the 2E SoB Codex. Despite the army focus being on the Sororitas, the book also contains loads of fluff about how the Ecclesiarchy and its clergy work.

Just a few excerpts relevant to this discussion:

"Imperial citizens can commit a multitude of sins, ranging from fairly minor infractions like making the wrong response to a hymnal, to heresy and blasphemy. The Imperial Creed teaches that a person's soul will either join the Emperor or be consumed by Chaos; every wrong commits the double sin of weakening the Emperor and strengthening Chaos. There are many degrees of penitence, such as paying a fine, performing good deeds, exclusion from certain masses and ceremonies and so on. For more extreme sins, the only way to purity the soul is to undertake a long an dangerous pilgrimage, flagellation and, in the extreme cases, death. For the most serious offences, there can be no mercy, regardless of status, wealth or breeding. [...] The greater the act performed in the Emperor's name, the more forgiveness is afforded by the Ecclesiarchy."

"Confessors are fiery individuals whose powerful oratories can stir a populace to rebel against a heretic lord or persuade an army to lay down its arms and surrender to the mercy of the Emperor (which is short and bloody). They can be found almost everywhere, berating those they believe to be faithless, imploring the citizens of the Imperium to denounce heretics and sinners. But it is not just amongst the seething masses that they operate. Confessors act as advisors to Imperial Guard colonels, planetary governors and sometimes, with special Ecclesiarchal dispensation, they even lead Wars of Faith against the sworn foes of the Emperor's light.
Each Confessor has hiw own style and techniques. Some prefer fiery speeches and rabble-rousing to incite the population into religious fanaticism, while others are more subtle, manipulating the leaders of guilds and other organisations to form coalitions against the enemy. They whisper into the ears of commanders, guiding them from behind the scenes, swaying their decisions down paths approved by the Ministorum."

"The Ecclesiarchy, especially the Confessors, is particularly determined in its duty to hunt down these menaces to humanity. Huge witch hunts can embroil communities, even whole planets, casting a pall of suspicion and fear across the population. The citizens of the Imperium are exhorted to spy on their neighbours, confess their own sins and root out the enemy from within. Occasionally, things can get out of hand, eitehr due to the magnificent oratory of the Confessor or through the manipulation of other individuals or organisations (the Inquisition in particular have been known to hijack these witch hunts for their own purposes). In these circumstances, mobs may start to run riot, accusing everybody of deviance, and burning and savagery may envelop the whole community before order can be restored. Less pious individuals may also use such occasions to further their own ends by removing their enemies, or at least disgracing them and settling old scores."

I can't stand when acolytes pull guns on the party to get their way, just ruins the team dynamic. In our group, our Inquisitor (The GM) assigned a team leader to the group (our adept), meaning his authority is above question. It is good some times where group conflict threats the stability of the group to have one person who has the power to say say knock it off.

It's usually good to have a team leader for that reason, yes.

The Mad Tanker wrote:I can't stand when acolytes pull guns on the party to get their way, just ruins the team dynamic.

Don't like it either. Though at times it is actually necessary for consistent character play. In my group, everyone hid the psyker's psykerness from my Sister, so when he finally came out (after making the walls bleed) she pulled her bolt pistol on him and an argument ensued. As a player, I did rely on the rest of the team as well as the Inquisitor who was present at the time to intervene and prevent the worst from happening, however, so the situation was kept "under control".

Conflict RP can be interesting and characterful, if it remains confined to certain limits that are usually enforced by keeping authority and similar background details in mind. It's a balance thing, but it has its place in the setting.

The Mad Tanker wrote:In our group, our Inquisitor (The GM) assigned a team leader to the group (our adept), meaning his authority is above question. It is good some times where group conflict threats the stability of the group to have one person who has the power to say say knock it off.

Yes, a Prime would be a good solution to the situation. Maybe this can even be "engineered" without making the ongoing conflict with the cleric seem to be the cause? You just have to take care that it isn't the cleric who ends up being the Prime...