Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I got some Remora's recently, they seem pretty balanced and I really love the model.
So I was wondering if it would do any harm with using it in a 2000pt game, because it really seems a shame such a good model that isn't allowed in a normal game.
The only problem I see is the flyer rule, but thats the thing that makes it worth its points.
What do you guys think?

For a friendly game you need opponent's consent, but once that's obtained there's no reason you can't use Forge World stuff. To a willing person no harm is done.

Tournaments are obviously a different story, very few of them allow Forge World stuff.

The leaked 6th Edition might (emphasis on might) be read to allow FW and SH in all games, but that's unclear/unofficial.

That would be cool.

Ignore Doctor Optimal, Forgeworld is and has been 100% legal for all non-tournament games for the better part of this past decade. You don't need 'opponents permission' to field Forgeworld units any more than you would need it to field your codex units, the entire game is a permissive ruleset and they have the right to decline a game against you based on any metric they so choose (your army is painted green? I decline to play against you, I hate the color green...).

chaos0xomega wrote:Ignore Doctor Optimal, Forgeworld is and has been 100% legal for all non-tournament games for the better part of this past decade. You don't need 'opponents permission' to field Forgeworld units any more than you would need it to field your codex units, the entire game is a permissive ruleset and they have the right to decline a game against you based on any metric they so choose (your army is painted green? I decline to play against you, I hate the color green...).

I would like to point out that there is a difference between color or other looks only issue and playing by additional optional rules.

The FW rules are fun for a great number of people, but they are an optional ruleset. If somebody doesn't want to play with these options, and a great number of people would rather not for many valid reasons, then you shouldn't force the issue past "I would like to play with these optional rules/models, is that ok with you?"

That being said OP: Flyers and super heavies are one of the more touchy subjects that nonFW players have towards FW rules. Fliers in particular add completely new rules to the game that is not in the core rulebook. There really isn't much in the way of reliable options to take out a flier for many base 40k armies. It would be in my opinion in good taste to at least warn your opponent that you intend to bring FW units, including possible fliers. Nobody likes playing a game where they have little/no chance of affecting the outcome after all.

It's all a real shame, especially for Eldar players. They got some great units in the new Imperial Armour book, that can't be used at tournaments. Our Eldar player is picking up Hornets and the new Phoenix Lord, and we damn sure are going to let him use them whenever he wants.

notabot187 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Ignore Doctor Optimal, Forgeworld is and has been 100% legal for all non-tournament games for the better part of this past decade. You don't need 'opponents permission' to field Forgeworld units any more than you would need it to field your codex units, the entire game is a permissive ruleset and they have the right to decline a game against you based on any metric they so choose (your army is painted green? I decline to play against you, I hate the color green...).

I would like to point out that there is a difference between color or other looks only issue and playing by additional optional rules.

The FW rules are fun for a great number of people, but they are an optional ruleset. If somebody doesn't want to play with these options, and a great number of people would rather not for many valid reasons, then you shouldn't force the issue past "I would like to play with these optional rules/models, is that ok with you?"

That being said OP: Flyers and super heavies are one of the more touchy subjects that nonFW players have towards FW rules. Fliers in particular add completely new rules to the game that is not in the core rulebook. There really isn't much in the way of reliable options to take out a flier for many base 40k armies. It would be in my opinion in good taste to at least warn your opponent that you intend to bring FW units, including possible fliers. Nobody likes playing a game where they have little/no chance of affecting the outcome after all.

Ignore the fact that the last few Forgeworld books have been marked 100% official rules.... Also ignore the fact that flyers effectively no longer exist outside of games of apocalypse. All flying units in thier newest rule incarnations have been made skimmers.

chaos0xomega wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Ignore Doctor Optimal, Forgeworld is and has been 100% legal for all non-tournament games for the better part of this past decade. You don't need 'opponents permission' to field Forgeworld units any more than you would need it to field your codex units, the entire game is a permissive ruleset and they have the right to decline a game against you based on any metric they so choose (your army is painted green? I decline to play against you, I hate the color green...).

I would like to point out that there is a difference between color or other looks only issue and playing by additional optional rules.

The FW rules are fun for a great number of people, but they are an optional ruleset. If somebody doesn't want to play with these options, and a great number of people would rather not for many valid reasons, then you shouldn't force the issue past "I would like to play with these optional rules/models, is that ok with you?"

That being said OP: Flyers and super heavies are one of the more touchy subjects that nonFW players have towards FW rules. Fliers in particular add completely new rules to the game that is not in the core rulebook. There really isn't much in the way of reliable options to take out a flier for many base 40k armies. It would be in my opinion in good taste to at least warn your opponent that you intend to bring FW units, including possible fliers. Nobody likes playing a game where they have little/no chance of affecting the outcome after all.

Ignore the fact that the last few Forgeworld books have been marked 100% official rules.... Also ignore the fact that flyers effectively no longer exist outside of games of apocalypse. All flying units in thier newest rule incarnations have been made skimmers.

FW books part of the core rules set? Man, could have sworn that with 40k most would consider "core" is the main BRB and your armies codex. FW while being legal is still an optional set of units and rules similar to cities of death, apoc, and mission based narratives sets/options that have come out in the past. THEY ARE AN OPTION. Most gamers when they play do probably do not expect FW brought without prior notice. The exceptions of course are when there is a local precedent, people know each other well, or some other such circumstance.

I'm not saying that its BADFUN or WRONGFUN to play with FW. I'm saying that many people do not like playing outside the core "basics" for various legit reasons, and its is pretty impolite to force a game on somebody who is not prepared to play with optional rules.

For instance, our local gaming community, which has 3 separate gaming stores where 40k can be purchased, has 0 forgeworld units/books/mods available for puchase. I have never seen a game played locally with FW outside of APOC. Even the basic units only get pulled out during big apoc games only. The casuals who like apoc models generally don't play all that much, and when they do they adopt codex rules for similar units in their armies codex. The serious business players don't waste their money on units that A: aren't good generally and B: wouldn't be allowed in tourneys even if they were. The true hobbyists could care less about the game and only buy cool looking models or convert their own.

As for the fliers issue, I was unaware that the fliers rules had been brought in line with skimmers... But that is because I can't be bothered to even read a copy of the book that I will get zero use out of.

chaos0xomega wrote:Ignore the fact that the last few Forgeworld books have been marked 100% official rules.... Also ignore the fact that flyers effectively no longer exist outside of games of apocalypse. All flying units in thier newest rule incarnations have been made skimmers.

So I didn't read the thing about asking permission in even the most recent FW book?
Oh wait - I did. Okie doke.

edited to put in what yakface said because he said it better than I could.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/419400.page#3755445

"As with all our models these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact that they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

This is exactly the same thing they've been putting in the IA books for years now, and that statement even acknowledges that 'all' their models are considered 'official' (but should be okayed by your opponent).

Would you like me to clarify the part where it doesn't say anything about asking for permission?

"it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

I dont see anything there that says I need permission, only that they should be "happy to play a game using Forge World models" which to me means "Hey' I'm using this Forge World model".... if thats a problem then they can choose to get over it and play anyway, no doubt the same way they feel when they are forced to play an opponent fielding an internet powergaming list such as leafblower guard, etc. or they can choose not to play me at all.

In a friendly game your opponent should allow them and if they don't it's a shame because it's a beautiful model.

"it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

If you're trying to force your opponent to play a game using rules they didn't agree to then they're not going to be too "happy" are they? No. The funny thing about the English language is there are so many ways to say the same thing. This passage does say that you need your opponents consent, despite your claims to the contrary.

chaos0xomega wrote:, no doubt the same way they feel when they are forced to play an opponent fielding an internet powergaming list such as leafblower guard, etc. or they can choose not to play me at all.

You really don't see a difference between $random_FW_unit and a normal codex list?

You do not need opponents permission, no more so than the permission you require to play any game using the core rules. I as your opponent have the right to refuse a game against you at any time for any reason regardless of how ridiculous that reason may be. Singling out forgeworld as being 'by opponents permission' makes no sense whatsoever because its no different than anything else in the game. Also, having spoken with the Foreworld guys about the subject at a games day, I can say that the passage is not meant to be taken as "you need permission to field it" but "you should make sure your opponent is aware".

If someone wants to use anything that is not from a codex then they should ask. Your opponent may not know the rules for the unit. That seems fair and polite to me. If my opponent persisted then I would tell them to pack sand and play someone else.

Your opponent may not know the rules for the unit. That seems fair and polite to me.

And that's all there is to it, really.

You don't need the permission of anybody to play, nor can somebody "force" you to play.
If someone refuses to play a list for whatever reason, then so be it. It doesn't have to be a good reason, like if they feel out of their comfort zone.

chaos0xomega wrote:You do not need opponents permission, no more so than the permission you require to play any game using the core rules. I as your opponent have the right to refuse a game against you at any time for any reason regardless of how ridiculous that reason may be. Singling out forgeworld as being 'by opponents permission' makes no sense whatsoever because its no different than anything else in the game. Also, having spoken with the Foreworld guys about the subject at a games day, I can say that the passage is not meant to be taken as "you need permission to field it" but "you should make sure your opponent is aware".

Theres a difference between "Wanna play my Tau?" and "Wanna play my Tau that use Remoras?"
That's the point. Just asking the former but including FW units is disengenuous IMO.