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Whoo! First proper Fantasy battle ever tonight, against Benamint's proxied Chaos Beastmen. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the battle, as well as where we went wrong or right, as both of us are so wet behind the ears you could use our dandruff as cement.

My list- 500 points Tomb Kings:

Level 2 Liche Priest- 105

8 Horse Archers w/ Full Command ( I wanna say ~142? Will fix later)

Skeleton Archers w/ Musician (about 103 points worth- once again, will put proper values in later)

3 Ushabti w/ Great Bows



Benamint's Beastmen

18 Gors – 126 – pts

10 Ungor Raiders – 60pts

Chaos Warhounds – 48pts
8 poisoned attacks - 24
SPECIAL

3x Minotaurs – 165
3 Great weapons – 24

Rare
1 Chaos Spawn - 55


Since this was a couple of newbies, Benamint decided not to use any magic in his list. I, of course, had to have my Heirophant- thus the Liche Priest. I ended up with Ptra's Righteous Smiting and Sekhmet's Skullstorm, but traded the Skullstorm out for Hsar's Incantation of the Desert Winds (signature spell). I wanted the regen.


We decided to just do a basic battle, annihilation, deployed 12" in from the long edges. Benamint set his up with the Warhounds holding the left flank (from my point of view), then the Ungor Raiders, Minotaurs, Gors (in Horde formation) and with the Chaos Spawn on the far right. I deployed my Archer (w/ Liche Priest) on a hill across from his Ungor, my Ushabti set up across from his Spawn, but angled a little towards the Gors, and my Horse Archers Vanguarded/Scouted (whichever rule it is) last, on the right flank of his Chaos Spawn. I went first, since I finished deploying first (I believe this to be the correct rule).

Tomb Kings turn 1:

I move my Archers and Ushabti up a little, and move my Horse Archers in front of the Spawn. I did this because I severely overestimated the efficacy of my shooting. Don't remember Winds of Magic, but attempted to get the Desert Winds off- Benamint had 2 Dispel dice, and needed a 10. He rolled :five:. Didn't get Vengeance off. Shot my Ushabti at the Spawn, doing diddly-all, and did the same with my Horse Archers. My regular Archers weren't in range of anything at that point, since I hadn't been able to double-move. No Charges, so no close combat. Lotsa Nothing.

Beastmen turn 1:

His Chaos Spawn easily moves/charges into the flank of my Horse Archers- again, was severely overestimating my shooting in that last turn. He Marches everything else forward. His Ungors don't quite have range yet, and nothing else has ranged attacks. I asked him if he wanted to try and declare any Charges, but aside from the Spawn, he seemed content to just March.
Combat against the Chaos Spawn was something of a whiff- in that the Spawn did absolutely nothing to my Horse Archers, and they (along with their Steeds) managed to put 3 Wounds on the Spawn, killing it (it may not have been exactly 3 wounds- but they did enough to kill it), since Benamint hadn't bought it any armour at all. A surprising amount of his list seemed to be unarmoured- there some special Beasmen rule we were missing, folks? Also, was I reading the rules right, and since I had a 5-3 setup for my Horsemen, and he charged in the side (meaning 2 Horse Archers ended up in b2b) I would get 4 attacks? 2 from the Mounts and 2 from the Riders?
Since the Spawn had died, I did a, what's it called, Overrun? for a couple inches. Again, not certain about that one- we decided (being 40K players) to just call it a 2d6 take the highest Consolidation move forwards. I was rather confused about that one (all that talk about Leadership tests and such) and Benamint didn't want to bother for our first game.

Tomb Kings turn 2:

This turn was a little more action-y. I Charged my Horse Archers into the right flank of his Gors, coming into B2B with 2 of them (Horde formation was only 2 deep, and not even full in the second rank). Moved everything else up a bit, angling my Ushabti more towards the Minotaurs and keeping my Liche Bunker on the hill (it was shaped like a kidney bean). Winds of Magic gave me about 6-8 dice, and gave him plenty of Dipel dice. I decided not to bother with Ptra's Righteous Smiting, since the only unit in range was my bunker, and they weren't in range of anything else (and wouldn't be for another turn, it seemed). Either that, or I tried it and it was dispelled- I don't remember perfectly clearly. However, it was this turn that I attempted a Boosted Desert Winds, and succeeded, granting extra Move to my Ushabti and Archers- unfortunately, it was with among the dice- rolled a five for the Mishap, and killed 5 of my Skeleton Archers, saving one with my Light Armour and Regen rolls, and taking a wound on my Heirophant. As that was done with the last of my Power Dice, the loss of d6 didn't matter so much. I think you're allowed Saves against Mishap damage, correct? There wasn't anything saying against it.
The Ushabti fire at the Minotaurs, dealing a single Wound to one of them.
In Close Combat between his Gors and my Horse Archers, he failed to do a single Wounds, and I did, well, quite a few. I think about 6? And he didn't have any armour on them, either. Due to Banner, Flank and 6 Wounds, he took a Break test and failed. He ran, and I ran 2 inches faster, catching and destroying the Gors. Again, does this sound right to you Fantasy vets? I don't know if that was done correctly or not.

Of course, it was right after this we realize the Beastmen have their Frenzy rule, and that Benamint hadn't rolled for it- we decided not to bother going back, though, this being first game and all. Or rather, he decided not to go back. I didn't protest too strenuously, though .

Beastmen turn 2:

He attempts a Charge with his Hounds, and they fall just a couple millimeters short- close, but it was fairly definite- his dogs weren't going to be gnawing any Khemrian bones this turn. His Minotaurs reform to face my Horsemen, and his Ungor move up to get into firing range of my Skeleton Archers. He fires off a volley, and I think he might have either wiffed, or killed a single Skelly- about the same result either way though, amirite? Nothing more for him this turn, though.

Tomb Kings turn 3:

I was somewhat worried about his Minotaurs, but figured "Hey, I come back, so what the heck!" and declared a Charge with my Horsies- they easily made it. Backed my Archers up a bit, and moved my Ushabti forward a bit. Winds of Magic blew my way this turn, giving be 7 or 8 Power dice, and Benamint only 1- basically impossible for him to block anything, and I got Ptra's Righteous Smiting off, boosted, giving all of my units those extra shots and attacks. Just to be clear, Steeds get a single bonus attack too, right? (and I just realized the Supporting Attackers woudn't have gotten extra attacks- so that was 3 fewer the Horsemen should have gotten against your Minotaurs- sorry Benamint!) Didn't manage to get a Boosted Desert Winds off, though- but the Smiting gave me back a few Skellies in my Bunker.
Shooting saw my Ushabti peg an Ungor, and saw my Skelly Bunker get a single Hound (out of all those archers, only 1!)
My Horse Archers, however, decimated the Minotaurs, dealing a whopping 6 wounds to them, killing off 2 and putting 2 wounds on the third! (one wound from the Ushabti earlier). That third swung back hard, though, killing 3 of my Horsemen in a single swing. I still managed to win Combat, however, with 1 for charging, 1 for Banner and 3 wounds difference- he ran, and I ran him down. (still not certain about this one, nor the other. Just seemed too easy) I didn't Overrun, however (I believe you can choose not to?) leaving his Ungor for shooting at.

Beastmen turn 3:

Well, he was feeling the pressure here, and responded by Charging his Hounds into my Archers and Liche Priest- at that distance he really couldn't miss the Charge. He shot his Ungors at my Horse Archers, killing another 3, including the Musician (I think the Musy goes before the Champion- though it didn't end up making much difference). I'm glad I'm Nehekaran, and thus this didn't cause a Panic test.
In CC, his Hounds dealt a few wounds, and I saved a couple with armour and Regen (though the Armour might have been cancelled- forgot the strength of the Hounds). Luckily he missed the single attack he directed at the Heirophant, or I'd have been Crumbling. I attacked back then, and thanks to Ptra's Smiting and the extra attacks, I killed all but one of his Hounds. That one was sheer luck of the roll for me, though, and I ended up winning combat by just a little. The Hound Broke, ran, and I wasn't able to run it down. (still feel like I'm missing something. Can Nehekharan undead even Pursue? will have to check that).

Tomb Kings turn 4:

I was somewhat determined to clean this up purely with shooting, so I didn't bother Charging anything, just moving my Ushabti up a little. Again. Winds of Magic again blew my way, giving me 8 Power dice- I spent 4 on a Boosted Smiting, and , with a six on the Miscast table- I applied the effects of the spell first, including the healing of my Liche Priest due to the Restless Dead- killed another 4 Skellies, most of whom I'd just brought back to life. Also restored 4 Horsemen, though, which was nice. The Miscast saw me deal another wound to my Heirophant, though- again, not sure about the order, because if the Miscast applied before the Restless Dead, my Heiro would've been kaput.
Ushabti blasted the last Hound, and between my Horsemen and my Archers, I shot 3 of his Ungor- they passed the Panic test, though.


This, I believe, is where we called the game. Benamint was a great sport throughout the whole thing, even denying go-backs that would have helped him out a bunch (like the Frenzy for his Gors and a Stomp attack for his Minotaur). All in all, it was a ton of fun, even though we kinda muddled through it, and I'm certain we mis-played a ton of rules- hopefully our next game will go smoother. I think the Beastmen's lack of magic hurt them a lot- some of the Lore spells probably would have helped demolish my Skellies a bit more, or at least keep his guys alive long enough to smash some face.


So, questions? Comments? Gripes about glaring misuse of rules? Bueller?

It was a fun game but yes 1 problem was that I flubbed all my rolls except for the dispell rolls! When I rolled for my spawns attacks it ended up being a 1.... So I had t attacks.... Could've really done some damage if I had rolled any other freaking thing.... Then when it came to the casting and dispelling I was mistakenly trying to dispel his movement spell instead of the one that gives him an extra attack..... Well moral of that story is that I was then raped when I was shot at and then when I assaulted with my chaos hounds they got mopped up.... All in all a fun game! I will definitely be checking out some of the other armies and maybe play another proxy game that is more competitive along the lines of me actually doing more damage to him than the miscasting... Looking at either Chaos for the next proxy or maybe lizardmen or (ugh) skaven

Benamint, I wouldn't give up on beastmen if you really like the look of them. They need some character support to be strong and the list you ran was pretty weak, for more information take a look here at the beastmen forum: http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx

Oooooh thanks! Yes I really only glossed over the rulebook for them and decided that I didn't feel like bothering with magic so I didn't take any shamans or magic items. I just was hoping for a smashy list that could use just bunch of strong melee units like Minotaurs. Also I really do LOVE the look of them. Does anyone have a good 3rd party miniature supplier for beastmen?

Thanks!
Ben

I applied the effects of the spell first, including the healing of my Liche Priest due to the Restless Dead- *snip* The Miscast saw me deal another wound to my Heirophant, though- again, not sure about the order, because if the Miscast applied before the Restless Dead, my Heiro would've been kaput.

You got the order right. You just can't heal characters with the Restless Dead.

Some thoughts, perhaps the points were missed in the write up but might be useful anyway.

Did your troops take a fear test when charged by the spawn? If they fail to roll equal or under their Ld on 2d6 then their WS is reduced to 1 for the combat phase as they cower. I always forget this one.

You could not overrun because you did not charge the destroyed unit in that turn.

Deployment of the horde: I am assuming it was in one rank of 10 and one rank of 8. This gives no benefit because non-horde units can attack with 1 attack per model in the second rank anyway. If you deploy 6 x 3 then you get the same number of supporting attacks but with an extra rank bonus in CR.

Order for removing command is musician, standard bearer, champion.

I am also not sure how your friend got so few dispel dice? For winds of magic roll 2d6, you get the total for your power pool and the opponent gets the highest score of one of the dice.

Um well as undead I think he doesn't take fear checks.... What's he to fear? He's dead. At least this is how I understood it. As for so few dispell dice, I had no magicy people. Soooooo we determined it to be I roll 2d6 then take the highest number for my dispell dice. Thats how we did stuff.

Yeah, Nehekharan Undead cause Fear themselves, and are Immune to Psychology as well. That's part of why I lurve them.

And what Benamint said- he didn't want to take any BrayShamans, despite my urging, so he had only the higher of the 2d6 in dispel dice. He used them to great effect, though.


@Tzeenchling- well, that would've changed things a little. Didn't realize that- I kinda thought there was something fishy about being able to heal damage before taking damage.

Something else we were a little confused about was Facing for Horse Archers/number of bow shots (is it like basic bowing, but from the side? Or what, since they don't have an 'arc' being Light Horsemen). It didn't cause any issues in the game, I believe, but it could be important, especially since I was favorably impressed by my horsemen. I think I may get another box or two of them, and go all-cavalry for my Core.

Was this your first game? It was actually quite a nice read, I enjoyed it.
I'm just gonna go ahead and list what rule mistakes you seem to have made, if you don't mind ^^ Just so that you, well, get the rules right... So, here, in order of appearance:
I do believe an army has to have a general... That is, a Lord or Hero (Definitively Hero on this points level). The Beastmen lacked this.

After deployment, each player roll a D6. The player who finished deploying first get +1 to his roll. The one who scores highest choose whom takes first turn.

I'm not sure regarding armour, but Beastmen seem like the kind of army that could lack armour saves... But I've never met Beastmen or read their armybook, so I wouldn't know. Also, Spawns do not have armour. I believe you can buy a 6+ ward save at best.

You got the attack numbers right though, for him being in your flank.
But I believe that you cannot 'consolidate' in that situation. You may only do this in two situations: If you charge and destroy every enemy in one round (you can Overrun), or if your opponent fails his Break Test and flees (then you may Pursue). When you Overrun and Pursue, you move 2D6 straight forward. If you win combat any other way, you may Reform freely, but not move.

The Mishap: Yes, you are allowed saves against the hit, but remember that in Fantasy, Strength imposes an armour penalty to armour saves. The hit was made at S10, which means -7 to the armour save (and I believe that would be too much for just about any armour!). Ward and Regen saves are unaffected by this though.

The Pursue seemed correct. You remembered to flee away from the enemy unit (and not towards the board edge? I know I've made that mistake too when starting Fantasy after playing 40k).

You got the Winds of Magic slightly wrong: Active player rolls 2d6 and gains that in power dice. Opponent gets the number on the highest roll in dispel dice.

I'm not sure on what you're asking on the turn 3 TK regarding CC, could you explain?

In the final turn, you could not have healed your Liche Priest. Characters in units cannot be healed by the Restless Dead, stated under the Army Special Rules (Ressurecting Models rule, or something like that).

Also, on a side note, Pursuing is pretty much the only way to kill large blocks of Infantry in Fantasy. It does kill the whole unit if you catch it.

Now, for something else. Benamint, I'd just like to encourage you not to give up on Beastmen just yet! If you like the look/feel, stay with them. I'm sure that between the stomps and Frenzy you've missed, you should have done better! Also, never underestimate a Hero. A wizard or fighty general is oftentimes really powerful, and may easily swing the tide of the battle.
And don't run in Horde unless you've got at least 30 models. When running 18 models, I would suggest something between 6-9 in width. I would probably run it 7 wide.

Also, great job putting this batrep together to you! Edit: Stupid grammar differences, that came out very wrong I meant, how to say... Great job of you putting this batrep together!

Good to know the Deployment rules.

The lack of General for the Beasmen may have been my fault- I told Benamint that there was no minimum for the Heroes- didn't realize you still needed one.

Lack of consolidation makes sense. I'll definitely keep that in mind for next time!

Completely forgot about the Armour Modifier for the Mishap! Most of the saves I made were Regen anyways, though.

We did do fleeing away from the enemy, but weren't sure if we needed to move the units first before removing them- I think they may have fled through other units, if you do indeed need to move them before doing the 'chase'.

So, with Winds of Magic, the active player rolls 2d6, and the other player simply gets the higher of that pair? He doesn't roll his own 2d6? Though the rulebook said they were seperate roles...

Good to know about the Character Healing thing- that might have changed the end of the game, as I'm horrible at Leadership roles.

Thanks for the rep!

Anvildude wrote:
The lack of General for the Beastmen may have been my fault- I told Benamint that there was no minimum for the Heroes- didn't realize you still needed one.

We did do fleeing away from the enemy, but weren't sure if we needed to move the units first before removing them- I think they may have fled through other units, if you do indeed need to move them before doing the 'chase'.

So, with Winds of Magic, the active player rolls 2d6, and the other player simply gets the higher of that pair? He doesn't roll his own 2d6? Though the rulebook said they were seperate roles...

I'm not 100% sure that you need a general too, but it makes sense that you would. That, and a general is never a bad choice imo.

You have to move the fleeing unit first, and then the pursuers roll and move as much as they rolled (+MOV). If an opposing unit flees through another unit, you cannot destroy it by pursuing. Instead, you charge the unit that's now in front of you and resolve that combat the next close combat phase (next turn).

And that's correct on the Winds. Roll 2d6, active gets both, opposing gets highest.

Also, I meant to credit you guys in the last sentence in my previous post being tired, I just accidentally a stupid and did some Engish/Swedish mix, I think... Or just used bad english grammar. Sorry about that.

Wow thanks for all the feedback! Yes this was indeed our first Fantasy game. The only reason I would look at different armies is for something in the line of armor saves. In 40K I play Tyranids and Tau so you'd think I'd be used to having crappy or no saves. I don't think there are any upgrades for Spawn though.... I do know that I could have given the Chaos Warhounds a save of 6. Buuuuut I didn't..... I didn't really understand the not having any real saves but it was fine. I still had a very enjoyable time and will start hunting for some Beastmen! I think they will be quite fun to play and paint. And thanks very much everyone for the rules clarification! I will have to take some time and remake a better Beastmen list....

No problem!
And don't bother with a 6+ save on warhounds. They are not worth it, and a 6+ save will even so be negated by anything S4 or higher.
And yes, I'm probably mistaken about the spawn. I was thinking that the Mark of Tzeentch gives it a 6+ ward... Then I realized that you don't have access to Marks, eh.
And also, make sure to make good use of the Army List part of this forum! I'm sure some of the more veteran Beastmen-lovers can help you!

500 pts is very limited for fantasy, in fact most tourneys will make exceptions, either no general needed or no cap on the general, this is because you can only take 25% in lords and 25% in heroes. Therefore your general has to be capped at 125pts. This only leaves you with 2 options a Wargor or a Shaman. Now a single level 1 shaman I find to be pretty useless. You get 1 spell so your options are to throw up to 6 (the max) amount of dice you can throw at it because your opponent will be throwing all their dispel dice at it. There is no "I'll at least get one of these off..." a level 2 will run you 110pts leaving very little for protection and WS4 T4 W2 is just not going to hold up well in combat. A Wargor gives you no magic, but higher leadership and leadership with primal fury and against undead for fear testing it is so important for us so it maybe a good option. So I will give you 2 lists one with the level 2 and one with a wargor.

Wargor -Great Weapon -Heavy Armor -Gnarled Hide -Talisman of Protection 123pts
29 Gor -Additional Hand Weapon -Full Command 257pts
5 Ungor Raiders 30pts
5 Ungor Raiders, -Musician 33pts
Razorgor 55
498

and

Bray Shaman -Lvl2 -Gnarled Hide 125pts (15 pts could also get you Talisman of Prot. for a 6+ ward but a 5+ armor might be better at this small point level)
29 Gor -Additional Hand Weapon -Full Command 257pts
5 Ungor Raiders 30pts
5 Ungor Raiders, -Musician 33pts
Razorgor 55
500

You can ambush one unit of raiders if you want, but they are basically their to redirect and stall, maybe get into a flank and pick up some combat res, don't expect their shooting to do anything. Razorgor is great for redirecting as well, or getting into contact with a mage and destroying him. With T5 and 3 wounds and a stomp attack you can throw it at a S3 unit and hold it up a turn or 2. You can get started with either of these pretty cheap, a battalion is a good buy and you can proxy the bestigor for gor until you get more also bestigor work great for wargor/beast lord conversions. As for the razorgor, get some orc boars and add some chaos spawn bitz like I did:

Dang thanks! New lists to try! And thanks for all the advice! I definitely didn't see help on my Beastmen coming from this bat rep! Ummmm just as a goofy question, do you know about how tall the minotaurs are or how tall the giants are? I am in college and have very little cash so I'd like to find some 3rd party minis that would work I'm sure there are other manufacturers out there for the popular fantasy creatures such as minotaurs.

Thanks!
Ben

Minotaur look awesome but T4 is weak. I mean how does a minotaur that is 3 times the size of a gor have the same toughness? Minos are best run in a strategy called the minobus. You get 3-6 of them and run them 3 wide and then add in 3 doombulls/gorebulls and use "make way" moves to move them to the front in combat, that way your opponent is having to attack against their higher WS and their higher toughness, and with magic items they are beasts and the minos behind them are just throwing supporting attacks. However the downside is the frenzy, since all your lord and hero points are tied up in minos if they get pulled away from your Gor or Bestigor they can lose the leadership and BSB bubble. And due to the high cost of gorebulls and doombulls you can't make use of the minobus until 2k+ games. My advice is start with the battalion and the lists I said, then add a 2nd and maybe a 3rd down the road. 60 Gor are a good number, giving you a large unit of 50 or a horde of 40 and 20 that can ambush. Bestigor you may want to shoot for 40-45. To save cost also consider filler units, I used 1 bestigor model in a scene that counts as 8 models. Here is a link to my army diary at the herdstone: http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=23168

The nice thing about Bestigor is they can take a magic banner and Banner of Discipline with a beast lord in it is the only way for us to get Ld10, with BSB rerolls you will fair fear or primal fury less then 5% of the time. And they hit like a truck S4 and Great Weapons is S6, against elite WS4 T4 Heavy Armor models with no shields, horded with primal fury you can expect to wipe out 18-19 a turn on average.

IMO work on that, which is what I have done getting enough infantry and then I am now looking at the minobus as a different way of running beastmen for some fun varaince not competitiveness. Unless you really like the models or idea of large minotaur. Then I'd try and still get 40 gor at least then 2-3 boxes of minos, I would just do ebay and try and save yourself 20% or so, most 3rd party model makes make individual models that are metal or resin that will run you $15-20 a pop. Just looked on ebay and a box of 3 minos is about $40. I would recommend magnetizing the arms too. Great weapons are the obvious choice for supporting attacks but additional hand weapons will allow those supporting attacks to trike at initiative and make fighting in your rear or flanks better. Consider that with the beast banner on a gorebull in the bus you'd be wasting some supporting attacks at you're looking at a base of 5, 7 with great weapons, and 6 with the beast banner 8 with the beast banner and great weapons which is a bit overkill unless you are planning on fighting T6 models.

Hmmmm yes in my looking around that's what I saw :p I looked on amazon and looks like a box of Gors run for around $20 with shipping. I will most definetly be trying out those lists and picking up some guys! (birthday coming up ) Thanks for all your help again!

Ben

PS- And DANG your guys look really nice painted up! :( makes me wanna paint them! I love painting, that's part of the reason I started commission work, I paint for spare minis, paint, money and bits. If it wouldn't cost me anything I might almost paint for free! I can't wait to paint some Beastmen!

I appreciate the compliment. I've only painted like 10 miniatures ever at this point, my method is very basic and works for me. Send me a PM when you have a few painted up with some pics.

Sounds fun. 500 pts is very limited.

I would've been happy to do more- I have enough Core that I could do a full 1000 or so points game, but since Benamint was proxying without the benefit of movement trays, we decided to keep things small. Also, well, we're still learning everything. And Benamint lurves his killteam.

Yes I do love Kill Team in 40K, but also I don't have too many proxy units. It woulda been fun to have had a larger game, buuuut oh well...