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Given the following situation, what happens?

1)a Necron IC with Ever Living (p29 necron codex) has joined a warrior squad of 20 warriors.
2) the warrior squad is assaulted.
3)the IC is singled out by enough enemy models to remove him as a casualty. An EL token is placed where the IC fell and the IC model is removed from the board
4) the assault continues. Some RP tokens are also placed as warriors are removed as casualties. The necron player loses the assault, fails their morale test, breaks and runs.
5) the unit that assaulted the necrons is capable of a sweeping advance. The necron player loses the initiative test and the warrior unit is swept.
6) all remaining necron warriors in the unit are removed from play. The RP tokens are removed.

Up until now, I think I have listed a series of events which is possible and there is no major disagreement on the legality of what has happened. Please correct me on any mistakes. Remember, this is only meant to be one possible series of event. It could have happened many other different ways and that is fine.

now for the possibly contentious points
7) does the EL token get removed at the same time as the RP tokens?
8) if no, does the dead model with EL still count as a part of the warrior unit even while removed from the table?
9) if no, does the returning model with EL, return as an IC and separate unit which can then join a unit it is capable of joining and in coherency OR return as a member the warrior unit it used to be a part of OR not even able to try to return at all OR some other odd combination or variation of this silliness.

In considering #8 please carefully read the whole EL entry on p29 of the necron codex
Also consider the precedents of...
a) Who gets 4+ res orb rolls as various parts of a combined unit are removed as casualties
b) A Lord Commissars joined to a unit of Conscripts does not return with the returning Conscripts squad when "send in the next wave" activates.


for those without the codex, p29 talks about the procedure for placing a returning model with EL, giving several, but sadly not all contingent possibilities. One of which is "if the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is able to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)." To me, this implies that a dead IC might not still be part of the unit they had joined, especially if the unit they had joined is no longer on the table. The conscripts example seems to support that also, as well well as some of the recent faq language. The res orb 4+ timing seems to be against it though, unless I am misreading the faq language on that.

I would say no EL roll and here is why.
If the IC assaulted on his own, yes he would get an EL roll.
If the entire unit was wiped out in cc (not SA), yes he would get an EL roll.
The problem is, until the owning players next movement phase, the IC is part of the unit for all intents and purposes (except for determining who can attack who in cc). As such, since the unit is removed when caught in SA, (not RFP, not RFPAAC, not wiped out. Just destroyed, and removed) then there cannot be an EL roll. As it is I already know certain people will "argue" this as they (including those who agree with me) are being rather stubborn on the other topic. Where it has boiled down to:
Yes
No
Yes
No
Yes
No
... with no end in sight. Unless a Mod locks it in a futile attempt to end the circular arguments (where someone is bound to start a new thread).

Happyjew wrote:
The problem is, until the owning players next movement phase, the IC is part of the unit for all intents and purposes (except for determining who can attack who in cc).

This is simply not true. Please re-read the EL rules on p29 of the necron codex and the following from the new faq
"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

The EL rules on p29 gives the player the option of joining an eligible unit when it is returned to play within 3" of the EL token and in coherency with the eligible unit. This is an unusual situation - a player is being given a choice to join an IC to a unit in some circumstances of the resolution of EL - which occurs at the end of a phase, usually shooting or assault. My question is, just how unusual is this, and does it imply thet the IC is not part of the warrior unit while dead?

A couple of what I think are key points here.

First, from Reanimation Protocol, a model with RP when removed may have a chance to "...self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase."

So what is the status of that counter? It is not the model, but it represents the model. If the RP roll is passed, you are not placing a new model or a replacement model with the unit, that model is returned to play. So the counter is used to represent a model that is still a part of that unit. Any rules or combat results that will effect the unit will effect that counter as it represents the model. Except that the RP rule specificaly states that if the unit has to make a fall back move, the counters are removed because, "...any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct..." which again reinforces the fact that the counters merely represent models that are still part of the unit.

Some models have the EL rule which follows the rules for RP with a few other exceptions. One important one from the fact is that if the unit is wiped out, a joined model from the royal court with the EL rule can still attempt to return to play with a die roll.

In both cases, the die roll to return to play takes place at the end of the phase. Now we already see that the counters placed on the board represent members of the unit that have been damaged and are awaiting the chance to roll a die and return to play. An IC that has joined a unit is not permitted to leave the unit during the assault phase, so the EL counter represents an IC that is still a part of the unit and will remain joined to the unit until after the assault phase has ended. This is again reinforced by the EL rule that states if a model with EL is joined to a unit when it was removed as a casulaty and it passes its EL roll, it must return to play in coherency with that unit.

So if the unit is destroyed due to close combat attacks and damage, all the counters representing models with the RP rule are removed as per the rule. However, any EL counters which represent models with the EL rule can remain and be rolled for at the end of the assault phase. For example, a unit of 5 warriors with an attached Cryptek are joined with an overlord. In the Assault phase, all 5 warriors are lost along with the Cryptek and the Lord. The appropriate counters are placed.Since all of the wrriors have been removed as casualties, you remove all the RP counters for the warriors, but you still get a chance to roll for the Cryptek and the Overlord as per the EL rule and the FAQ. If they both pass, the overlord must be placed in coherency with the Cryptek since he was joined to that unit when removed as a casualty.

In the case of a sweeping advance, you would need a specific exception in an army's special rule to save the unit from being destroyed. If an IC was joined to a unit and the unit was caught by a sweeping advance and destroyed, the IC would be destroyed right along with the unit, because the IC and the unit are only separate units when attacks are resolved and because the rule says once all the attacks have been resolved the IC is once again just a normal member of the unit.

It matters not whether the models in the unit are the models themselves or either RP or EL counters representing models that have a chance to return to play, if the unit is destroyed and the model or unit does not have a specific rule saving them from the condition which destroyed the unit, then they are all destroyed and removed.

I think the problem that a lot of people have is in remembering the difference between models and units. Something that affects a model may leave the rest of the unit unaffected, but a condition that affects the unit affects each and every model that is a part of that unit.

So bottom line, if a unit gets destroyed by a sweeping advance, any and all ICs that are attached to that unit are also destroyed.

Counters are not models. When I shoot a Triarch Stalker at something and hit, the codex tells you to place a counter next to the hit unit so you may twin-link other units firing a the same unit. Is it a model?

Representing is not the same as "counts as". To be clear the counters represent the casualties taken. It's technically a number they are representing.

I do think this is in need of an FAQ though. I see how both sides could be perceived as correct and I will be using the least advantageous to me when I pull out my Crons.

time wizard wrote:So what is the status of that counter? It is not the model, but it represents the model. If the RP roll is passed, you are not placing a new model or a replacement model with the unit, that model is returned to play. So the counter is used to represent a model that is still a part of that unit. Any rules or combat results that will effect the unit will effect that counter as it represents the model. Except that the RP rule specificaly states that if the unit has to make a fall back move, the counters are removed because, "...any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct..." which again reinforces the fact that the counters merely represent models that are still part of the unit.

This is the clearest and most compelling NO argument for this question that I have yet seen. Thank you. I believe it is further strengthened by the fact that an overlord with a phylactery that comes back due to EL, comes back with d3 wounds remaining, not full wounds remaining.

For me, this clarifies the last issue I had with the topic. Being able to answer NO to #7 of the OP negates the need to answer #s 8 and 9.

Taken from another thread:

Point one: Sweeping Advance does not allow a model or unit to be saved and continue fighting unless the rule making the exception specifically states it stops Sweeping Advance.

Counterpoint: EL does not save the model against SA therefore it does not need to mention SA in the rule. The model is destroyed (and removed) immediately, SA is satisfied, and a EL counter is placed. Later in the game the counter allows the player to roll and bring back the model. SA is in no way prevented or contradicted by EL and the model may still come back.

So it is still debatable despite the long attempts here for people to push forward their own opinions, and despite a recent FAQ which apparently cleared up nothing.

The bottom line is, that unless there is a house rule one way or the other it is best to either take the least advantage (no EL for models that die from SA) or if you really feel strongly about it offer your opponent a roll off.

In reality whichever way you play, it's far from game breaking. Your opponent may still consolidate near the EL token and prevent you from coming back by not leaving room for you to place your model within 3" of the token and still be 1" from an enemy model. Most times if your necrons are getting slaughtered in combat you have bigger problems, though it might be a slight advantage in more closely fought games.

Your counterpoint is wrong, basically

the unit is DESTROYED - gone. Not coming back. You are attempting to put the model / unit back on the table, thus saving the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your counterpoint is wrong, basically

the unit is DESTROYED - gone. Not coming back. You are attempting to put the model / unit back on the table, thus saving the unit.

I agree that what you're saying is another side of the argument.

The counter to that is: at the end of phase, sweeping advance is no longer in effect when you roll for the EL token.

It is still debatable and the fact that RP rules actually says it is regarding "destroyed units" further makes your argument about the word "destroyed" open to debate.

@time wizard after they hot shot in your scenario. How at the end of the shooting phase they did not get back up. It to be more clear roll to get back up. Are you assuming that they fail or did you not know rp happens after each phase.

Actually I do know they test at the end of each phase.

That was just an unfortunate braing lapse back to WBB. I'll fix it.

Thanks for catching that.

Saw that also on like page 95 of the sa thread but just passed it off as a clerical error. But saw it again so I had to ask.

As far as I can see, an IC which has joined the unit is part of that unit until another 'check' is made on his status. In the base rules, the only time that check is ever made is in the Movement Phase, when he's allowed to leave the unit. That would indicate that even after being removed from the table, the IC is STILL considered part of the unit; also supported by counting KPs.

EL seems to add another check; if the model comes back (legally) and the unit is elsewhere/has been wiped out, the IC returns as his own thing and can do anything ICs can normally do, including joining another unit. That necessarily means that he's his own unit now (if he was still part of the unit, he couldn't then join another one). THAT means there's been a check added; that check is done after the EL roll, when you're figuring out where the returning model is placed.

BUT. All this means is that, while he's dead but BEFORE the EL roll is made, anything that applies to the unit still applies to the IC, because he is still a member of the unit.

So;

7) No. It's an EL token, not a RP token.
8) Yes. This means that the result of the SA still applies to him, even though he's not on the table; and THAT means that even if the EL roll is passed, he cannot return to the tabletop.
9). Irrelevant, because the IC does still count as a member of the unit and so cannot return.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
So;

7) No. It's an EL token, not a RP token.
8) Yes. This means that the result of the SA still applies to him, even though he's not on the table; and THAT means that even if the EL roll is passed, he cannot return to the tabletop.
9). Irrelevant, because the IC does still count as a member of the unit and so cannot return.

Unfortunately you seem to not have all the information.

From the Necron Codex:
"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purpose of Reanimation Protocols..."

From the latest Necron FAQ:
"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

The IC does not still count as a member of the unit. From the FAQ the IC still gets to come back even if the unit has been wiped out.

Not gonna have this same argument in two different threads at the same time, sorry. Refer to the other, much larger thread for my full reasoning.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Not gonna have this same argument in two different threads at the same time, sorry. Refer to the other, much larger thread for my full reasoning.

Agreed. However the above is also related to the original posters question so I didn't mind putting it here too.

Nemesor - he is not part of the unit FOR THE PURPOSES OF RP

You seem to have a problem with dropping rather crucial qualifiers and then claiming a new general rule has been created. Dont.