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I just finished the 3'rd book last night, it was an excellent read.
Spoiler:
However I had few questions on the subject:
-How did the Renegades of Vraks go from simple anti-Imperial rebels to Chaos followers? Cadinal Xaphan saw himself as Emperor's most devoted servant, he wanted to round up an army and start Faith War across the sector. When Krieg started their campaign the Renegade Militia already have the Chaos marks on them, I tough that was strange for Cardinal to swap to the Chaos powers in such a short time. Especially for a men that saw his act as service to the Emperor.
-Even if their nature is siege warfare, why didn't DKoK asked for areal support from IN? If they had several bomber squadrons at the very beginning the pushing trough the first lines would be more easier and cost less men.
-Why didn't the Ordo Malleus allowed Ordo Hereticus to participate in the Campaign? Sure, they had their own reasons to take over the war but it would be good to have few Sister Orders fighting on Vraks to ease the pain on Kriegsmen. And support from the Ecclesiarchy for that matter, so why refuse them and keeping them as far as possible from the war?
-In the end, Vraks was closed for everyone and the 88'th army was posted on another war zone in the galaxy. Giving the fluff from new GK Codex the GK would kill all the remaining Krieg Guardsman and mind-wipe Red Scorpions and Angels of Absolution ( I doubt that they would try that to Red Hunters sice they have deep connections with the big I ). So do this new codex fluff overrules existing one or does the siege of Vraks happened just according to book? Where Grey Knights saved Krieg Guardsman from Daemons of Chaos in one battle. And after that allow them to go elsewhere in the galaxy and maybe share stories about their silver saviours to other Regiments?
Other than this the rest was excellent read, reading this I realized why people see Krieg as the most bad-ass Guardsmen ever ( seriously, committing more them 14.000.000 solder to campaign is something. And the actions of several Krieg officers made this story an epic peace of work ). I am only sorry for Sisters that had to be executed in the end, they didn't stand much of the chance in the war anyway - but I guess Grimdark enough for us?
So what do you think?
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Didn't Cadinal Xaphan just use imperial faith to insnare followers? He was already corrupt I thought.
As for Ordo Hereticus not being involded I would suspect it was influence on the DA part as they came to Vraks to capture and interrogate Arkos the Faithless on the whereabouts of some Fallen DA.
They wouldnt want inquistion to medle in their affairs especially the fact they could find out about the Fallen.
- Xaphan fails to realize you cannot strike a deal with Chaos. It's true, it could be useful in the short term (Arkos and his Alpha Legion marines are vital to delay imperial operations), but it's a binding pact: corruption follows swiftly. The presence of Chaos "advisors" first and troops in a second time slowly corrupts Vraks' militiamen, without even their knoledge, most of the times (remember the part which says they don't know the meaning of chaos heraldry on their equipment), while control slips through the Cardinal's fingers, while his mind and body are twisted towards spawndom. The moral is: you want Chaos help? Expect a price to be paid in full.
- remember that Vraks had fortress world-level defences, meaning even a full IN battlefleet would have a hard time cracking mutiple void shields and defence laser silos. Surely this also means the planet had a grid of atmosphere-level ground-to-air defences to avoid orbital insertion of both attack and landing crafts, making aerial sorties (before the last part of the siege, when most of the defences had been dismantled through gound attacks) a tactical suicide.
- politics, mostly. The big =I= is a maze of political parties, and the Vraks war was as much a political as a military battlefields for the two Ordos: a good way to reaffirm their superiority in the sector. Allowing the Ordo Hereticus to assist them or even take the lead in the war would have meant showing the Ordo Malleus didn't have the strength to do it on their own. It was a matter of balance of powers and prestige.
- the way I personally see it, Krieg guardsmen are, like Cadians, a useful commodity for the Imperium: trained to the human limits, capable of resisting the kind of psycological pressure that would drive anyone else mad, and , expecially, utterly expendable. I suppose the Ordo Malleus would have mind probed the upper echelons, made those more evidently corrupted disappear in some incident and shipped the rest to some hopeles warzone were they would have been grinded to death in a matter of months. Remember Kriegsmen are renowned for being isolationist, avoiding contacts with others and being rarely sent to battlefields along other, non-krieg, regiments. This, together with the Krieg mindset of obedience, faith and search for redemption, should keep the risk of them becoming corrupt or infecting other minds in the small time before they are wiped out on the battlefield to a minimum (in addition, remember that most of the regiments who had made contact with demonic forces had been almost completely wiped out before the end of the fightings on Vraks).
As for marine forces, I suppose the Red Scorpions would have voluntarily undergone any sort of mind probing and scrubbing, being obsessed with purity as they are, while the Angels of Absolution, as every other chapter affiliated to the Dark Angels, would have opposed that pretty heavily (after all, if you have some "dark secret" to keep, being mind probed could not be such a good idea), being in a notoriously bad relationship with the Ordo Hereticus and the Inquisition in general. Anyway, I suppose that was contemplated in the deal they had struck with Inquisitor Rex before their intervention in the final assault on the citadel.
What is the Fear of Death? That we die, our work incomplete. What is the Joy of Life? To die, knowing our task is done
487th Krieg Siege Regiment - 'Forlorn Hope' Wild Cards (formerly classified as - - - ob Ordinem Ordinis Xenos Dimotum - - -) 159th Flight, 46th Squadron, 258th Wing, Imperial Navy - Steel Wings (seconded to the Wild Cards) Strike Force Invenitor - Ordo Xenos Strike Force Inflammator - Ordo Malleus Strike Group Interimor - Legio Deletor [WH40k]
Crew of Scipio Quaestor, of the merchantman Amor Vacui 44th Empire Line Regiment - Getrampelt
The Wild Hunt [WHFB]
- Xaphan fails to realize you cannot strike a deal with Chaos. It's true, it could be useful in the short term (Arkos and his Alpha Legion marines are vital to delay imperial operations), but it's a binding pact: corruption follows swiftly. The presence of Chaos "advisors" first and troops in a second time slowly corrupts Vraks' militiamen, without even their knoledge, most of the times (remember the part which says they don't know the meaning of chaos heraldry on their equipment), while control slips through the Cardinal's fingers, while his mind and body are twisted towards spawndom. The moral is: you want Chaos help? Expect a price to be paid in full.
- remember that Vraks had fortress world-level defences, meaning even a full IN battlefleet would have a hard time cracking mutiple void shields and defence laser silos. Surely this also means the planet had a grid of atmosphere-level ground-to-air defences to avoid orbital insertion of both attack and landing crafts, making aerial sorties (before the last part of the siege, when most of the defences had been dismantled through gound attacks) a tactical suicide.
- politics, mostly. The big =I= is a maze of political parties, and the Vraks war was as much a political as a military battlefields for the two Ordos: a good way to reaffirm their superiority in the sector. Allowing the Ordo Hereticus to assist them or even take the lead in the war would have meant showing the Ordo Malleus didn't have the strength to do it on their own. It was a matter of balance of powers and prestige.
- the way I personally see it, Krieg guardsmen are, like Cadians, a useful commodity for the Imperium: trained to the human limits, capable of resisting the kind of psycological pressure that would drive anyone else mad, and , expecially, utterly expendable. I suppose the Ordo Malleus would have mind probed the upper echelons, made those more evidently corrupted disappear in some incident and shipped the rest to some hopeles warzone were they would have been grinded to death in a matter of months. Remember Kriegsmen are renowned for being isolationist, avoiding contacts with others and being rarely sent to battlefields along other, non-krieg, regiments. This, together with the Krieg mindset of obedience, faith and search for redemption, should keep the risk of them becoming corrupt or infecting other minds in the small time before they are wiped out on the battlefield to a minimum (in addition, remember that most of the regiments who had made contact with demonic forces had been almost completely wiped out before the end of the fightings on Vraks).
As for marine forces, I suppose the Red Scorpions would have voluntarily undergone any sort of mind probing and scrubbing, being obsessed with purity as they are, while the Angels of Absolution, as every other chapter affiliated to the Dark Angels, would have opposed that pretty heavily (after all, if you have some "dark secret" to keep, being mind probed could not be such a good idea), being in a notoriously bad relationship with the Ordo Hereticus and the Inquisition in general. Anyway, I suppose that was contemplated in the deal they had struck with Inquisitor Rex before their intervention in the final assault on the citadel.
Spoiler:
Good point The Vraksian Miltia had a well entrenched in thier defence on the planet and having anti air guns and aircraft available would have made it quite difficult for the attackers to use bombers or any kind of air units.
Brother Coa wrote:Giving the fluff from new GK Codex the GK would kill all the remaining Krieg Guardsman and mind-wipe Red Scorpions and Angels of Absolution ( I doubt that they would try that to Red Hunters sice they have deep connections with the big I )
I highly doubt that the Ordo Malleus could even try to mind wipe any Angels of Absolution marines as DA chapters don't trust/like the inqusition due to thier dark secret and would never allow them to find out why they are really on Vraks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/29 12:31:49
On the second defensive line Imeprium started to bombard them using Marauders. There is no data that a single one was shot down by enemy anti-air defenses. Thus we may conclude two things:
-Enemy AA turrets were destroyed by heavy Krieg bombarding,
or
-They didn't have one at all.
Logic is if Krieg obliterated most of the Renegade AA turrets on 1'st and 2'nd defensive line why IN didn't give Marauders at the beginning to harass the enemy even more?
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Brother Coa wrote:On the second defensive line Imeprium started to bombard them using Marauders. There is no data that a single one was shot down by enemy anti-air defenses. Thus we may conclude two things:
-Enemy AA turrets were destroyed by heavy Krieg bombarding,
or
-They didn't have one at all.
Logic is if Krieg obliterated most of the Renegade AA turrets on 1'st and 2'nd defensive line why IN didn't give Marauders at the beginning to harass the enemy even more?
I seriously doubt that the bombers didn't suffer any casaulties, the renegades did have Aircraft after all even if the air defences were weakened I'd imagine that Vraks still had AA defences.
It may also be that the defences were simply too impenetrable by air and thus needed ground forces to soften up the defences.]
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/01/29 13:09:39
Yak9UT wrote:
I seriously doubt that the bombers didn't suffer any casaulties, the renegades did have Aircraft after all even if the air defences were weakened I'd imagine that Vraks still had AA defences.
It may also be that the defences were simply too impenetrable by air and thus needed ground forces to soften up the defences.
Renegades didn't have any Aircraft. When Chaos arrived with air-power ( Helltalons and other ) the Krieg were near breaking trough the 2'nd defensive line already.
But you may be right, maybe the AA batteries were so well protected that bombers couldn't do a thing against them.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
The Grey Knights cleansing imperial forces after chaos incursions is a new (and kinda stupid) fluff point that didn't exist when Vraks was published I believe. I have always viewed it as they only do it in MAJOR chaos incursions, becasue if they did in for any chaos incursions, they would run out of soldiers pretty quick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/29 16:43:14
The Grey Knights cleansing imperial forces after chaos incursions is a new (and kinda stupid) fluff point that didn't exist when Vraks was published
I believe. I have always viewed it as they only do it in MAJOR chaos incursions, becasue if they did in for any chaos incursions, they would run out of soldiers pretty quick.
Negatory. This has been around for a long time. The Armageddon War against Angron and his people had a major sticking point for the Space Wolves as they found out that every soldier was going to be killed/mindwiped.
Why didn't the Ordo Malleus allowed Ordo Hereticus to participate in the Campaign? Sure, they had their own reasons to take over the war but it would be good to have few Sister Orders fighting on Vraks to ease the pain on Kriegsmen. And support from the Ecclesiarchy for that matter, so why refuse them and keeping them as far as possible from the war?
Forgeworld doesn't care too much about SoB, so I'm not surprised they were omitted - even though fighting Rogue Cardinals is one of their main tasks, before any other Imperial organization is involved. This has nothing to do with the Ordo Hereticus either, it's their mandate as the Ecclesiarchy's internal police.
Though I doubt it would have been a "few" Orders; they only seem to band together for major operations, but in a case like Vraks it would have probably been a force from a single one of the Major Orders in unison with lots of Frateris Militia and Imperial Guard.
Why didn't the Ordo Malleus allowed Ordo Hereticus to participate in the Campaign? Sure, they had their own reasons to take over the war but it would be good to have few Sister Orders fighting on Vraks to ease the pain on Kriegsmen. And support from the Ecclesiarchy for that matter, so why refuse them and keeping them as far as possible from the war?
Forgeworld doesn't care too much about SoB, so I'm not surprised they were omitted - even though fighting Rogue Cardinals is one of their main tasks, before any other Imperial organization is involved. This has nothing to do with the Ordo Hereticus either, it's their mandate as the Ecclesiarchy's internal police.
Though I doubt it would have been a "few" Orders; they only seem to band together for major operations, but in a case like Vraks it would have probably been a force from a single one of the Major Orders in unison with lots of Frateris Militia and Imperial Guard.
It is bad enough to control a bunch of Astartes psychopaths. Accepting troops affiliated with the Ordo Heretics, which competed with Rex for command of the Vraks campaign, might have been more hassle than it was worth it. In the grand scheme of things a few thousand sisters wouldn't have achieved much that couldn't be done by the better equiped and more numerous Siege Regiments. Even the Astartes there weren't used in most of the actual fighting. The Frateris Militia is equaly pointless for such a siege scenario. Ill trained and equiped they are at best canonfodder and at worst a liability.
Both Sisters and the Frateris have their uses but sieging the Vraks fortress wasn't one of them.
KingDeath wrote:It is bad enough to control a bunch of Astartes psychopaths. Accepting troops affiliated with the Ordo Heretics, which competed with Rex for command of the Vraks campaign, might have been more hassle than it was worth it.
They are no more affiliated with the Ordo Hereticus than some Space Marine Chapter or a Titan Legion - all can be drawn upon by a Hereticus Inquisitor. From how I understood it, the Convocation of Nephilim (and with it the role as Chamber Militant) was more to prevent the Ordos Xenos and Malleus from employing them rather than making sure the Sisters work for the Hereticus most of the time. They remain an Ecclesiarchy force first and foremost, a Sororitas Canoness isn't answering to internal Inquisitorial politics, and a Rogue Cardinal is primarily an Ecclesiarchal matter.
KingDeath wrote:In the grand scheme of things a few thousand sisters wouldn't have achieved much that couldn't be done by the better equiped and more numerous Siege Regiments.
True, I guess. Just pointing out that they are trained and specialized to handle such situations.
KingDeath wrote:The Frateris Militia is equaly pointless for such a siege scenario. Ill trained and equiped they are at best canonfodder and at worst a liability.
Wasn't the trench fighting on Vraks all about cannonfodder?
As I said, I think the reason was simply that FW doesn't really support the Sisters in general. With the exception of a single vehicle drawing (to promote the weird-looking FW Exorcist) and the Repressor article, they don't show up in any of their dozen Imperial Armour books, and their catalogue range is limited to three conversion kits and a set of doors. Compared to Forgeworld, GW is showering the SoB with attention and love.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/30 02:16:29
-How did the Renegades of Vraks go from simple anti-Imperial rebels to Chaos followers? Cadinal Xaphan saw himself as Emperor's most devoted servant, he wanted to round up an army and start Faith War across the sector. When Krieg started their campaign the Renegade Militia already have the Chaos marks on them, I tough that was strange for Cardinal to swap to the Chaos powers in such a short time. Especially for a men that saw his act as service to the Emperor.
Deacon Mamon who was a chaos agent managed to become Xaphan's closest adviser. He deliberately misled and lied to Xaphan to make it seem that the Imperium was out to get him, and led him to Chaos. I believe the introduction in IA5 explains this completely so you might want to read that bit again (especially the part after the Vindicare gets caught)
Well I haven't read the book but I might be able to answer one question
Spoiler:
Even if their nature is siege warfare, why didn't DKoK asked for areal support from IN? If they had several bomber squadrons at the very beginning the pushing trough the first lines would be more easier and cost less men.
If I am not mistaken the DKoK are insane when it comes to pride and have this whole redemption theme going on so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd refuse help and rather take heavy casualties and do it be themselves rather than show some sort of weakness (or logical thinking). But no idea if that fits the context.
"Wait... wait... wait... NOW SHOTGUN THAT MOTHAF*****!!!" "I'd
AreTwo wrote: this list is dangerously cheesy, so much so that you might have been playing Chester Cheeto in disguise.
Fire_for_effect wrote:Well I haven't read the book but I might be able to answer one question
Spoiler:
Even if their nature is siege warfare, why didn't DKoK asked for areal support from IN? If they had several bomber squadrons at the very beginning the pushing trough the first lines would be more easier and cost less men.
If I am not mistaken the DKoK are insane when it comes to pride and have this whole redemption theme going on so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd refuse help and rather take heavy casualties and do it be themselves rather than show some sort of weakness (or logical thinking). But no idea if that fits the context.
The DKoK wouldn't jeapordise their chance of success because of pride.
Failure is the worst shame of all.
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
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Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
Brother Coa wrote:I just finished the 3'rd book last night, it was an excellent read.
Spoiler:
However I had few questions on the subject:
-How did the Renegades of Vraks go from simple anti-Imperial rebels to Chaos followers? Cadinal Xaphan saw himself as Emperor's most devoted servant, he wanted to round up an army and start Faith War across the sector. When Krieg started their campaign the Renegade Militia already have the Chaos marks on them, I tough that was strange for Cardinal to swap to the Chaos powers in such a short time. Especially for a men that saw his act as service to the Emperor.
-Even if their nature is siege warfare, why didn't DKoK asked for areal support from IN? If they had several bomber squadrons at the very beginning the pushing trough the first lines would be more easier and cost less men.
-Why didn't the Ordo Malleus allowed Ordo Hereticus to participate in the Campaign? Sure, they had their own reasons to take over the war but it would be good to have few Sister Orders fighting on Vraks to ease the pain on Kriegsmen. And support from the Ecclesiarchy for that matter, so why refuse them and keeping them as far as possible from the war?
-In the end, Vraks was closed for everyone and the 88'th army was posted on another war zone in the galaxy. Giving the fluff from new GK Codex the GK would kill all the remaining Krieg Guardsman and mind-wipe Red Scorpions and Angels of Absolution ( I doubt that they would try that to Red Hunters sice they have deep connections with the big I ). So do this new codex fluff overrules existing one or does the siege of Vraks happened just according to book? Where Grey Knights saved Krieg Guardsman from Daemons of Chaos in one battle. And after that allow them to go elsewhere in the galaxy and maybe share stories about their silver saviours to other Regiments?
Other than this the rest was excellent read, reading this I realized why people see Krieg as the most bad-ass Guardsmen ever ( seriously, committing more them 14.000.000 solder to campaign is something. And the actions of several Krieg officers made this story an epic peace of work ). I am only sorry for Sisters that had to be executed in the end, they didn't stand much of the chance in the war anyway - but I guess Grimdark enough for us?
So what do you think?
- That's a classic 40K trope. Most people don't wake up one day and decide they're going to be Tzeentch-worshippers. Often they are put in horrible, no-win situations by The Imperium itself and in desperation find themselves on a slipperly slope falling towards Chaos.
- The citadel had the best AA defense the galaxy had to offer. It wasn't even safe for Spaceships to be on that side of the planet. Near the end it had been pummeled enough that it's AA and orbital defense started to have reduce effectiveness.
- Because they all hate each other. The Inquistion is not a united force at all. Half the time, half the Inquistion is screwing with the other half of the inquistion.
- Basically it seems to come down to the fact that Lord Hector Rex is a nice guy. The fact that most Kriegers seem to be natural, voluntary mutes who never talk about anything may have helped his decision to be benevolent.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! 
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done" 
Renegades & Heretics 2056pts
159th Flight, 46th Squadron, 258th Wing, Imperial Navy - Steel Wings (seconded to the Wild Cards) 
Strike Force Inflammator - Ordo Malleus 
The Vraksian Miltia had a well entrenched in thier defence on the planet and having anti air guns and aircraft available would have made it quite difficult for the attackers to use bombers or any kind of air units.
