| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2012/02/01 06:31:08
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Hey all, so I was playing a game with Yermom, and an interesting thing came up regarding hit and run on his fiends. See, I charged the fiends with a bunch of bikes, and at the end of the combat when he chose to hit and run he got 7 inches. Now, thanks to the bikes placement and the large size of them, 7 inches in the direction he chose was in the middle of a biker. Now, yes it is true that you ignore models you are in combat with, BUT you cant end on top of another model. We played it that he got another 2 inches or so to clear the bikers, but obviously adding 2 inches to the hit and run distance was just a quick fix house rule.
Now, while I saw nothing in the GW FAQ about hit and run, the INAT says that if you were to move into impassible terrain or off the table you reduce the distance so they stay on the board. While useful, that doesn't really help in this situation. For example, what if there is no direction that you can pick with hit and run that will allow you to clear the models you are surrouned by? If surrounded by a big ork mob and you use hit and run but roll 3 1's, and thus cant clear the orks, what happens? Does hit and run fail and you are still in combat? Is the unit destroyed? Is the unit moved extra distance until its legally placed?
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/01 06:32:07
|
|
|
 |
|
2012/02/01 06:53:53
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Confessor Of Sins
|
I'd say move the extra distance needed to clear 1", just as a unit does when Falling Back from CC. That's just my opinion ofc.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 07:05:12
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Incorporating Wet-Blending
|
Enemy models are impassable terrain.....
|
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 07:49:17
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Lordhat, the models are impasable terrain, EXCEPT you ignore them for hit and run. So I need more than that.
Spetulhu, the extra distance you get when falling back is useful, where did you find that rule?
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 11:17:27
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
I've always played it that you need to land an inch away from enemies, but there isnt really anything i've found in the rules to support this. H&R has always been....odd, ruleswise (hence having to ignore models youre in combat with, etc)
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 13:18:58
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
|
DevianID wrote: For example, what if there is no direction that you can pick with hit and run that will allow you to clear the models you are surrouned by? If surrounded by a big ork mob and you use hit and run but roll 3 1's, and thus cant clear the orks, what happens? Does hit and run fail and you are still in combat? Is the unit destroyed? Is the unit moved extra distance until its legally placed?
Hit & Run allows the unit to move up to 3D6 in a straight line. Saying you ignore the units you are locked with just means you can move over them if possible.
Since you are allowed to move up to the distance, nothing gives you the permission to move over that distance. If you can't move far enough in any direction to not land on an enemy unit, then I believe you would fail to disengage from the combat. So you would stay locked in combat, and the hit and run would fail.
|
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 13:58:09
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Huge Hierodule
|
Hit and Run also allows movement in any direction, are you saying your fiends were fully surrounded on all sides by 7" of bikes, after their mandatory pile-in moves? that's an ENORMOUS bike squad, then...
|
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. |
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 14:36:13
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
|
tetrisphreak wrote:...that's an ENORMOUS bike squad, then...
Why do you think he was trying to hit and run away from it!
I always ignored models for restricting movement, but played that I had to end 1" away if possible. If I was surrounded and got a 3" hit and run, I would leave the Fiends in place and let my opponent backup 1" on their consolidation move.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 15:10:34
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Fresh-Faced New User
|
calypso2ts wrote:tetrisphreak wrote:...that's an ENORMOUS bike squad, then...
Why do you think he was trying to hit and run away from it!
+1... although Bikes do have an obnoxiously gigantic footprint, and if you're in combat with them anywhere near the board edge it's not beyond the realms of possibility for them to cover 7" on all sides. Especially if they're in a loose formation and you've had to Pile In. Not forgetting Fiends are on big fat Terminator bases too. tl;dr: Bikes and Fiends are both horrible and should be banned.
On topic, if it was me playing the Fiends, I'd have picked another direction to move in; if you can't complete a movement in a given direction for whatever reason, your first recourse is to move in another direction. If you can't do that, strictly speaking you shouldn't be able to H&R, although I can't quote from the Gospel to back that up - there doesn't seem to be anything specifically relating to H&R, although it's possible something in the Movement rules covers it. Unless someone finds something official somewhere I think it's just a judgement call based on how magnanimous you're feeling; staying put and asking your opponent to Consolidate to 1" away doesn't seem like a bad solution.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 16:18:59
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Confessor Of Sins
|
DevianID wrote:Spetulhu, the extra distance you get when falling back is useful, where did you find that rule?
In the Morale section, under Falling Back from CC... page 45.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 16:26:25
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
|
Spetulhu wrote:DevianID wrote:Spetulhu, the extra distance you get when falling back is useful, where did you find that rule?
In the Morale section, under Falling Back from CC... page 45.
But that extra distance is only for units that are falling back
Units that are using hit & run are using that rule to leave a combat that they are locked in.
If you are locked in combat, you are not falling back, and vice versa.
So you could not get extra movement distance from a fall back move if using the hit & run rule.
|
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 16:50:32
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Confessor Of Sins
|
I'm just suggesting that one could use that since the rules don't quite cover the issue otherwise. The unit did succesfully disengage, after all - it would be strange to leave them in a limbo where they can't move and might also be in too small a space surrounded by enemies they're no longer engaged with.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 20:11:39
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Huge Hierodule
|
Isn't Hit and Run described as a Fall Back move in any direction (in the BRB)? If so then I would agree you get the extra necessary 1" to remain disengaged.
|
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. |
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 20:15:18
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Hit & Run never specifies Fall Back. It allows the unit to move 3d6" in a straight line, no SA, not slowed by DT, affected by Dangerous Terrain, may not be used to move into contact with the enemy.
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 20:49:37
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
|
tetrisphreak wrote:Isn't Hit and Run described as a Fall Back move in any direction (in the BRB)? If so then I would agree you get the extra necessary 1" to remain disengaged.
Hit & Run, main rules, page 75, "Units with this ability that are locked in close combat may choose to leave close combat..."
Main rules page 45 2nd paragraph under Fall Back!, "Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test."
You only take a morale test upon losing a close combat, and once you lose a close combat, and fail a morale test, you are not locked in close combat.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/01 21:29:41
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 21:24:43
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Incorporating Wet-Blending
|
time wizard wrote:
and once you lose a clse combat, you are not locked in close combat.
Untrue. Units are no longer locked in combat once they fail the morale test after losing the CC. If they pass, then they remain locked.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/01 21:24:57
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 21:30:11
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Sinewy Scourge
Long Island, New York, USA
|
Lordhat wrote:time wizard wrote:
and once you lose a clse combat, you are not locked in close combat.
Untrue. Units are no longer locked in combat once they fail the morale test after losing the CC. If they pass, then they remain locked.
Correct, thanks, edited and fixed my post.
|
I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/01 22:12:53
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
If it helps the discussion, the fiends were only 1 inch or so up from the board edge, and while with a 7 inch move he may have gotten away to the left or right, he would have needed about 9 inches to the north minimum.
Regardless of the direction choosen, though, the possibility of only getting 3 inches exists, leaving a unit with hit and run stuck in the middle of a unit still. Since nothing states they are destroyed if they can not complete this hit and run movement, I dont want to go there. So where does that leave us rules wise?
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/02 02:25:46
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Incorporating Wet-Blending
|
Personally I believe that the unit with H&R will then possibly be unable to move at all.
1. Yes they may make the move 'ignoring' the units they are in contact with. Normally this presents no problem as 3d6 should be a sufficient amount.
2. The rule says 'up to 3D6" in a straight line'. So you can move less than, but not more than.
3. "It (H&R) may not be used to move into contact with the enemy." The enemy as a whole, not just enemies other than the units in CC at the time.
In conclusion:
You may ignore the locked enemy units while making the the H&R move but not at the end of the move, and you have no permission to move more than the amount rolled on the dice, and 0" is definitely less than any amount rolled.
The only sure thing at this point is that the unit is no longer considered locked and and enemy units that are also no longer locked may consolidate.
|
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/02 14:11:10
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Huge Hierodule
|
Lordhat wrote:Personally I believe that the unit with H&R will then possibly be unable to move at all.
1. Yes they may make the move 'ignoring' the units they are in contact with. Normally this presents no problem as 3d6 should be a sufficient amount.
2. The rule says 'up to 3D6" in a straight line'. So you can move less than, but not more than.
3. "It (H&R) may not be used to move into contact with the enemy." The enemy as a whole, not just enemies other than the units in CC at the time.
In conclusion:
You may ignore the locked enemy units while making the the H&R move but not at the end of the move, and you have no permission to move more than the amount rolled on the dice, and 0" is definitely less than any amount rolled.
The only sure thing at this point is that the unit is no longer considered locked and and enemy units that are also no longer locked may consolidate.
Very good Point, Lordhat - the 0" move, ignoring the enemy they're locked with, does indeed just cause both sides to consolidate. A successful hit and run means they're no longer in CC, and while they can't get 18" away across the board the bikes they were locked with are now able to be shot at. I think this solves the problem.
|
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. |
|
|
|
|
2012/02/03 13:36:53
Subject: Sweeping Advance
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
So rules wise, if the 3d6 results in an invalid placement, take the 0" move for the fiends, and then my bikes consolidate to be 1 inch away. Works for me, bit odd looking, but if hit and run says 'up to 3d6' then 0" is a legal move, and results in no fiends phasing into bikes!
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/03 16:58:37
Subject: Re:Sweeping Advance
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that the two models can't occupy the same space? Typically, we don't have this problem, as models can't move inside one another, but during H&R, you're told to ignore the enemy models, leaving you totally capable of ending up in the same space as them.
Just say that your model is inside the biker, and use WMS so you don't have to physically place him there.
For other examples of times when models occupy the same space: Deep striking, in between when you place the model and when you determine if there's a mishap, the models often times occupy the same physical space.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2012/02/03 19:03:43
Subject: Re:Sweeping Advance
|
|
Incorporating Wet-Blending
|
Grakmar wrote:Why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that the two models can't occupy the same space?
Generally because we're told they can't on page 11 of the BGB.
Typically, we don't have this problem, as models can't move inside one another, but during H&R, you're told to ignore the enemy models, leaving you totally capable of ending up in the same space as them.
Except that the H&R specifically state that the result of the move cannot be that the 'running' unit ends it's move 'in contact with the enemy'. Quantum physics aside, anything occupying the same space as another thing is, by definition, 'in contact with it'. There might be an argument for being 'inside' friendly models, but this strikes me (and most players, I assume) as just silly.
For other examples of times when models occupy the same space: Deep striking, in between when you place the model and when you determine if there's a mishap,
I'll simply argue semantics here... "on top or within 1" " is, by definition, not occupying the same space.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/03 19:04:52
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
